David Bronner: Soap, Psychedelics, and the All One Ethos

Dr. Bronner’s Cosmic Engagement Officer David Bronner joins Divergent States for a candid, nuts-and-bolts conversation about building an “All One” company culture, pushing for psychedelic policy reform, and rewiring global supply chains to be fair, transparent, and regenerative. We trace the lineage from Rainbow Gatherings to Burning Man, from hemp activism to MAPS, and from commodity brokers to farmer-first vertical integration. Co-host therapist Valerie Beltran helps press on the tradeoffs: regulated access versus decriminalization, mission versus financing, growth versus grassroots.

Key points

• The “All One God Faith” DNA, salary caps (5× lowest vested wage), and why profit is a means, not the mission.
• Why Dr. Bronner’s backed hemp early, fought DEA roadblocks, and supported MAPS, Oregon’s Measure 110, DC decrim, and church-based access models.
• Regulated access vs. decriminalization: complementary pathways; cost, community, and safety implications.
• Purpose-aligned financing: why many mission brands drift, and how the emerging Purpose Pledge aims to solve it.
• Sourcing as activism: Ghana palm grown in multi-strata agroforestry; olive oil partnerships across Palestinian and Israeli producers; farmer income and soil health as first principles.
• Regenerative Organic Certification: weaving soil health, animal welfare, and fair labor into one consumer standard.
• Cultural lineage: Zendo/sanctuary work, AA’s Bill Wilson and LSD, Sacred Plant Alliance, and lessons from the Brotherhood of Eternal Love.
• Pitfalls and PR landmines: navigating blame and lawsuits in a fast-shifting policy landscape.
• Longevity over hype: why real soap beats detergents, and the quirky “punk rock soap opera” moment that proved it.
• Practical integration: moving from unitive states to everyday choices—diet, sourcing, and local service.

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Special thanks to Sandbgz for the music! Follow him on Spotify!

00:00 – Intro & Setup
02:00 – From Burning Man to the Mic
04:35 – Origins & Rainbow Gathering Roots
06:25 – The All One God Faith Legacy
10:25 – Sourcing as Activism
15:20 – Mission Financing & the Purpose Pledge
17:35 – Building Roots & Staying Grounded
22:30 – Why Risk Psychedelic Advocacy
28:30 – Early Activism & the Hemp Wars
33:00 – Meeting Rick Doblin at Burning Man
37:00 – Decrim, Churches & Community Access
39:15 – Pitfalls & Lawsuits
40:30 – Choosing Battles & Lessons from Oregon 110
42:45 – Integration & Regenerative Organic Agriculture
46:45 – From Vision to Action
51:55 – Balancing Perfection & Pragmatism
55:45 – Longevity over Hype
1:01:00 – Heaven on Earth & Deep Time
1:03:45 – Brotherhood of Eternal Love & Rainbow Bridge
1:08:30 – Closing Reflections
1:12:00 – Outro & Patreon Call to Action

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Transcript

0:15

Welcome back to Divergent States, this is 3L1T3. uh Today we're gonna be talking to David Bronner, he's the chief engagement officer for Dr. Bronner's. uh And instead of Bryan this week, I've got Valerie Beltran with me. You guys remember her from the, uh from the seven principles of a psychonaut episode and from the Zendo project episode. uh Valerie, how you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Happy to be talking to David Bronner, especially with my camped with the Foamy Homies for three years at Burning Man with David Bronner. So I'm happy to be able to experience him in this new capacity. Yeah, I'm excited. just, it's such a great company, like all they do for environmental stuff and agricultural and just a huge reach for everything, grassroots activism. So I'm real excited to get around to this conversation. We're going to sit around talk to him. First, we're going to listen to some music from Sandbags again. He's got a new EP out. You guys check him out on SoundCloud, Spotify. Oh. By the way, before we get into that, last I saw you was psychedelic science 2025. What have you been up to since then? Since then, let's see, I am focusing full time on my private practice now. I'm a therapist. I work with psychedelics in my practice. I supervise at a main clinic, teach with psychedelics today. And so I had been working with Zendo Project for the last couple of years. Formerly, I was the outreach director. And now I am just focusing solely on my private practice. I'm creating more continuing education classes. teaching therapists who want to get a little bit more experience and knowledge about psychedelics. I've been focusing a lot more on teaching and on client work. That's amazing. And you recently went to the uh Burning Man, didn't you? I did, I went to Burning Man. This time I got to just have fun, bring the fun back to Burning Man, as David was saying. I saw your pictures. look, I mean, it looked like a blast and it looks like you got to avoid most of the mud. So that's a good thing. I I came in right at the right time, think, although it feels like it was a really special experience having a rebuilding man. I've heard people calling it where it's just like everyday rebuilding and it's an incredible experience for all of those people to be doing that every single day. really respect and commend them for the effort. So kind of a mess up. RIP the orgy dome. Yes, I know, poor orgy dome Anyway guys, yeah, thank you. We're gonna we're gonna go we're gonna listen to some sandbags. We'll be right back and Talk to David Bronner uh So back with David Bronner, CEO, Chief Engagement Officer of Dr. Bronner's Soap. It's kind of a full circle for myself. I originally saw Dr. Bronner's at a rainbow gathering in the 90s. know, all the granola hippies out there, didn't like soap too much. They'd looked out on soap. But Dr. Bronner's was one of the few. They were like, no, that one's totally cool. Don't worry about that. So, you know, we had the rainbow gatherings that kind of have this informal setup where, you know, there's no real one leader. ah just the community builds for each other, builds the infrastructure for each other. And, you know, as we're out there at those gatherings, that's one of those things that we noticed is we were, you know, I'd read the bottle back there in the 90s and I'd see, you all this stuff about like, you know, radical inclusiveness and then, you know, and it was wild. just, you know, and it was like, well, this is what we're doing out here. And so, you know, way back, I guess it was 2006, 2007, when I started Psychonaut, that was kind of the same mentality that I brought to that, to how to build that was, was there's no real one leader. all in this together. We kind of build the infrastructure together and, and help each other out. And it's even come as far into this podcast here as, as sorry, you know, I, I, I see it kind of the same way as just building infrastructure to be able to help people out. so that's kind of this, basically been living those same values from Dr. Bronner's soap that I saw 30 years ago. I've been living them all along. So it's really cool, kind of a full circle moment for it. And so just, thank you guys for all the soap and everything you guys do for the community and everything. And we just want to acknowledge that. Yeah, right on. I think forgot what book I was reading. And I think it was gifted to me by George Seaman from Organic Valley. And he's a huge rainbow gathering guy. And maybe it was about the origins of it. that there's like, I forgot what page but they're like, corresponding to my granddad, like the first rainbow. he shipped out a whole, you know, so many cases, many, many cases of gallon peppermint. I to say, yeah, the peppermint soap, that's what I remember most about the baths at the rainbow gatherings and the creeks, that peppermint soap. yeah, I wanted to start out with that. your granddad kind of he put all of that philosophy on the bottle and you're still carrying the torch. So what's that like still living that out all the way in 2025? Yeah, well, I like what you're just saying about like how, you know, people coming together to just, you know, create infrastructure for each other and for the collective and, know, for spirit. Yeah, and I had that insight actually at the the burn really hard this time about because I had a friend during strike to say, you know, he's the Virgin Burner. He's like, man, I feel so good, you know, like after like busting ass. And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's kind of like I was like feeling like the labor. You know, I'm not that familiar with Freemasonry just just a little bit. But, know, and I'm sure there's all kinds of weird whatever. But, know, at its core, as I understand it, is like about getting to a place of co-creating with God, you know, like you're, you know, you're that flow and helping build the cathedral and just like manifesting our camp and blasting Dusty Burners clean and kind of healing the fundamental Judeo-Christian like. uh sin or like the repression of our sensuality and animality and nature in this world has fallen and sinful and overcoming that and like, we're just all beautiful naked kids running in the sprinklers and just kind of getting into that eating state and just like, yeah, but just like, yeah, when you're building and using something for that high of a purpose, just, yeah, it's beautiful. um you know, does what we do at Dr. Browner's day in day out, like rise that level. You know, I mean, I think it's directionally in that direction. You know, it's not quite as maybe pure, but we strive. That's kind of where we're striving, you know, and, you know, try to do things in a really good way and go to market in a way that honors, you know, all our workers, all our farmers and our supply chains, the environment. um And, uh yeah, know, capping salaries and donating profits we make to different causes and orgs. Yeah, I mean, I think it does honor my granddad's original vision. He, you my granddad started the company as a nonprofit religious organization and our corporate name remains All One God Faith, Inc. So like when you look at like when we were suing the DEA over hemp back in 2001, it's, All One God Faith versus Drug Enforcement Administration. But our DBA is Dr. Bronner's. But yeah, know, mean, IRS disagreed with his self designated tax exempt status at a certain point. And he was in bankruptcy paying back taxes. And my parents got involved at that point, my uncle, and helped reorganize things. And we exited bankruptcy as a for-profit, but with the DNA of a nonprofit. And yeah, just really try to keep that ethos at the heart of everything we do. I was gonna say that you guys just had an announcement earlier this week. think about something with where you're sourcing your stuff from so you're still keeping that kind of Yeah that uh Keeping that same ethos that's always been there in the company, which yeah, I really like that Do you where do you feel like you're still channeling his energy and where do have to kind of change that up for now? um Well, yeah, on the sourcing. that was something, my grandma was great, but it was buying from brokers, like pretty much everyone else. And it's a natural distilled soap, so wasn't a bunch of synthetic petrochemical detergents. It's all natural, biodegradable, wash your hair, dog dishes by the side of the river. At a rainbow gathering, you don't have to worry about it. So it was always great like that. But when I came in the late 90s, you know, realizing with, you know, kind of the rise of the organic movement and the fair trade movement is like, okay, wait a minute. Like, I don't actually know where there's oils coming from. Like this is, you know, we're just buying on price and spec like everyone else does from brokers and realizing that's really fueling this kind of race to the bottom around the world. And, you it was inspired by equal exchange, the fair trade worker owned um coffee, coffee company. and Guayaquil, the Yerba Mate company that was, you know, critically integrating and making sure that the Yerba Mate was being grown in a really good way in the rainforest by the Guayaquil tribe. so, yeah, so I would say like, you know, just taking my granddad's ethics and applying them to our, you know, our sourcing and, you know, fast forward. Now we do have like amazing stories around each of our major raw materials, which are coconut, palm, olive and mint. in various others like lavender and tea tree. And um each of them have a really cool story at this point. um Like the palm, and I was inspired by hemp. mean, hemp was kind of like a way of landing body blows in on the drug war. And then also um grows like a weed. It doesn't need a whole lot of synthetic inputs to grow. But quickly realized, or it took a couple of years, but that cannabis, well, it... can be grown in a really great way, is often grown in a deplorable way. And then palm oil, which is key in our bar soap, symbolizes all things evil about agriculture, rightly so, it's generally grown in... these huge plantations in Borneo and Indonesia and they're ripping up rainforest and displacing farming communities. You go to work for slave wages on these plantations and then they're ripping up wetlands and oxidizing huge amounts of carbon. But there's nothing inherent about palm that is bad. It's just generally grown in a really bad way. that hemp at its best was symbolizing a regenerative organic management approach to all agriculture. Whereas palm symbolizes all that was bad about industrial agriculture. But that you can actually grow palm in a really good way. And we've partnered with farmers in Ghana. It was initially an NGO in 2008. oh One thing led to another. And now we have a sister company there. And our farmers are growing palm with cocoa, banana, and cassava. in a multi-stratodynamic ag forestry system. So you're kind of replicating a wild forest ecosystem. It's got like tall trees, mid trees, bushes and ground cover. And when you do... know, farm crops that fill those niches in complementary ways. You're maximizing photosynthetic capture. You're minimizing weed and pest pressure because of dense monocultures, like really leads to like huge pest infestations. So when you're breaking that up and so you're boosting yields, your mass amounts of biomass is going into the ground. incomes are boosted. So the sourcing, applying this ethos, how do we farm, how do we produce our food, the fibers for our clothes, the materials for our soaps, and other things in a way that isn't driving us off the climate change cliff. And then the sixth great extinction event. So, oh and then our olive oil to share briefly is coming from primarily Palestinian farmers in the West Bank, like 80 plus percent. And then the balance from the Israeli side. And on Israeli side, half from a Jewish family farm and half from a Palestinian Christian project. So we've got Muslim, Christian, Jewish, olive oil in the soaps, kind of resonated in my granddad's ethos. And obviously it's super gnarly right now. And I actually just got, we just decided not to go visit our Palestinian farmers in, in for the olive harvest, just because of how gnarly it is, but are in deep solidarity there and, and, and support peace activists on all sides. It's amazing that you're able to follow these ethos from your granddad and the legacy and do it still with so much success for the business. And I feel like there's so many companies out there that feel like they have to sacrifice so much to if they are still going to turn a profit that they have to make these sacrifices and they can't follow these environmental principles that you seem to do so well. what would you say to other businesses? How could they follow more in your footsteps? What's keeping them from being able to be as successful as you are? Yeah. I mean, I think the problem a lot of mission-driven companies run into is financing, you know, that at certain point in their growth trajectories, they need to bring in outside financing. Most of the time, you know, the available financing is from non-mission aligned partners or, you know, kind of, but not really. And that's usually when things kind of go sideways pretty quickly. So yeah, it's all about, you know, you really just need to be careful who you take money from. That's a big, big problem. But we did just, we're helping launch a project called Purpose Pledge. I think it's purposepledge.org. It might be purposepledge.com. But we're in a pilot year with companies like Nature's Path and Guayaquil and Seth Goldman's new tea brand, which is just, is it Just Ice Tea? Yeah, so Justice Tea, Just Ice Tea. He did Honest Tea. But then Coke bought it and then ran it into the ground and discontinued it. So he's like, well, that was a terrible experience. But now he's back in the game with this really awesome new tea company. And yeah, we got a lot of like 20 really cool companies. And we're kind of really building out commitment areas around supply chain integrity, both ecological and social. carbon neutrality, living wages, what does that mean? Working with NGO partners who are working in the US as well as globally to really define what does that mean? And em then the hope is that we really get this into really ground truth that refine it and then early next year we launch and other companies can em come in and join. And crucially, we're hoping to get a substantial fund alongside it that would provide patient capital to these companies that want to do things right, but are having problems getting the right kind of partners to be able to like honor the mission and ethos that they want to have, but often gets compromised when you start bringing on the wrong partners. Beautiful. That really speaks to like the communal aspect of it, which I haven't really thought too much in terms of businesses. You usually think about community in terms of collectives of individuals, but thinking about businesses being able to support each other in this way, that's so beautiful. Yeah, right on. mean, yeah, unfortunately, usually when businesses band together, it's like Chamber of Commerce to make sure whatever minimum wage, you know, doesn't happen or whatever, regulation, make sure we kill that. Yeah. But there's no reason that it hasn't be that way. We can totally be forces for good. Yeah. Yeah, that's I kind of see you guys as building roots. That's what you that's kind of the best way to put it. You guys build roots and that's what keeps everything going, is building that infrastructure first off as you're as kind of rapid back as we were talking earlier, you build that infrastructure. It all stays in place. em How do you balance the global reach while staying grassroots? Yeah, no, right on. And I love that the rooted metaphor, think, like we have kind of two dimensions of that. One is, you know, literally vertically integrating down to the farm level and really making sure, you know, all our raw materials are being grown and harvested in a good way to the benefit of the communities and the earth. But then also, you know, I'm a fifth generation so maker. My granddad's granddad first started making soap in 1858 in a small German town of Laupheim, in southern Germany. We actually bought our in the Jewish quarter. actually bought our ancestral home. It's a museum, So making history um and a home for autistic adults. That's my goal. Yeah, so we got that kind of ancestral lineage and then, you know, just family lineage and then also like, And yeah, I think that definitely helps us in our... Yeah, just keeping grounded, of those roots stuck in. How do you, again, how do you balance that global reach while staying grassroots? Yeah, well, I mean, I think it helps. I mean, there's a couple of ways. think one that none of us are personally motivated by profit per se, except insofar as we want to support the causes and orgs that we care about. All our compensation is capped at five times our lowest vested position, um which means oh it's a five years vesting process at Bronner. you know, like a warehouse position over five years, you get pay grid increases. So the top salary at Bronner's is five times that fully vested position. And so I think there's not. um How do you say the incentive to just chase profit for profit sake and, know, we can more easily balance other other interests. um And then, yeah, you know, we're like. Almost 400 people now, so it's definitely a different company than 15 people when I joined in 98. But yeah, now we got two shifts, got a third shift even. We got three buildings, things get bigger and the challenge of keeping the culture is real. But we have a whole team, our engagement team, actually our Magic Foam Experience team is the Foamy Homies. They do a lot when they're not at Burning Man, we're kind of rocking internally and just kind of keeping vibes high. Mm-hmm. But the community where, I mean, a lot of our philanthropy, I mean, a lot, you know, to your first question, you know, honoring my granddad, definitely supporting this responsible integration of psychedelic medicines that feels most resonant to his all one mission, you know, the Holocaust being the dark inspiration of his passion to unite the human race across faith and ethnic divides. And I think, you know, while there's plenty of counter examples, you know, on average, Hopefully this integration of medicine is gonna help global citizenry become more empathic, less judgmental, more able to deal with our challenges. And that's obviously a major cause area, but also just like, houses services around town, like youth programs, a lot of things here. just around here around town, you know, just kind of making sure we're very connected with what's going on here locally. And yeah. Kind of bring it, excuse me. You brought up psychedelics and you're kind of going moving on to that. Your company could have stayed just in the soap world, but you guys went all in on maps, decriminalization, like everything. And most would say that's not a safe corporate move. uh Why risk it? Well, I saw that the profit potential was no, no, I'm joking. That wasn't what was motivating. But but uh actually the uh like, I didn't understand my granddad growing up and, and he wasn't the best father. uh Yeah, he my dad's mom, my granddad's wife, uh first wife. died when my dad was very young. And then my granddad was interned in a mental health asylum in the kind of the post-World War II, Red Scare, McCarthy, hysteria. And I think maybe he feared his kids could be taken from him at any time. But he escaped and came out west and set up shop in LA. And my dad and uncle and aunt were raised in a series of foster homes. And my granddad financially supported and visited, but was pretty absent. And yeah, I kind of forgot where I was going with this. But. I was asking why risk the psychedelics kind of a risky. oh yeah. So, so I was raised in a Reaganite household. My mom and dad are amazing. My dad, like he went to the Navy when he was 17, became Chief Petty Officer, highest in the civil rank. And then went to work for my granddad in LA. but it just was a difficult relationship. My granddad moved down to San Diego in North County, Escondido. And my dad stayed up there to make the soap at a local chemical specialty manufacturer. And then became head of operations there and developed firefighting foam for structure and forest fires. And then a version for Hollywood is a fake snow. know, Burning Man, it's like my granddad served through my dad's firefighting technology. But, you know, that's like a ancestral deal. But, yeah, but my granddad, you know, I didn't, you know, when I saw him, you know, it was so important for him that I understood the all one mission, you know, and it's like, we are one or none, you we must unite this spaceship. It was making no sense. You know, I was like, you know, I was like, okay, grappling. But yeah, but but it wasn't too. Yeah, I mean, college, I had some important psychedelic experiences, but it was like right after I was in Amsterdam in 95 and a gay trans club on LSD and MDMA and going through a lot um and was at a crisis point. My then relationship to my girlfriend who's become my wife and mother of my kid. And we split eight years ago, but amazing woman. And in the medicine space, I mean, first kind of working through all kinds of false constructs of gender and what does it mean to be a human? And like I'm incarnate soul, I'm not gay, I'm not straight, I'm not man or woman, I'm here to get down and busting through to that. then... But then in the medicine space, seeing my girlfriend had gone traveling in Asia for like nine months shortly after we'd gotten together. And I'd saw like just clearly how... much I had cut her down out of like kind of insecure petty jealousy. And when she returned and like just saw like death by a thousand cuts, what I was in, you know, and I, in her light in her arrows and her compassion were just so beautiful and vision, you know, and I was like, dude, better you die and then be in her way. And then, and died and. you know, as I fell away from, I could see this demonic horde assaulting her light. And then her light exploded and embraced me in the infinite love, infinite light. And, you know, and realizing that she was carrying my own soul and vision that what I was doing to her, was doing to my own soul. Yeah. And so then, you know, in that sp- you know, in, you know, like, heart shocker blowing open, you in the light, you know, and then, you know, and then I'm like, well, holy shit, so God, you're real. But wait a minute, like, how does, you know, how does this love go together with all the rape and murder and all this shit happening like right now on the earth? And it was microscope to nothing. And like just the divine self of all, which I was some infinitesimal part, but divine self, like living and dying and crucifying and suffering and suffering all of it. There was no God over there. It's like it's all divine self and it's all this huge mystery and just. And, you know, but then I saw Jesus stepping in and I'd rejected my Christian faith. I said I was raised Protestant, but I also said the shaman Hebrew and English um growing up. um But I Jesus, know, because I was 13, was like, you know, okay, God so loves the world, why did he just send his son to this one spot? You what about the Chinese and all the other planets? And, you know, it didn't make a lot of sense. But all of sudden, in vision, you know, Jesus is stepping in and he's, you know, not... you know, not trying to explain it. He's not complaining. He's just stepping in with grace and compassion. And I'm like, holy fuck. Yeah, that's it. You know, we're here to get down and serve. We're that part of the divine self that can, you know, stop the suffering, stop the oppression and violence. We're raining down on each other. And so and I'm very much on all one path and I've had many experiences with other religious systems. um But. um in some ways a mystical Christian at heart. um But uh yeah, so that experience was like, so big and initially I was gonna, I still wasn't gonna join Bronner's. I was gonna grow cannabis and become an activist and end the drug war and integrate the medicines as fast as possible. Right. Yeah, I mean, yeah, think that a lot of us when we first real young like that are like, yeah, I'm just going to grow weed. That's totally what we can do forever. It's the best thing ever. Yeah, I did it. fix the drug war and solve all the problems and integrate all the things. Like, yeah, mean, part of me wishes you had done that instead of gone into Dr. Bronner's. Like, that would have been great for you to just like, solve all those things. Well, now you can do both, right? There you go. Well, exactly. mean, that is, you know, so yeah, I mean, so the weed thing didn't work out for like three months, you know, three really important months, you know, just in the squat scene in Amsterdam. But I was a mental health counselor in the Watertown, Waltham area outside McLean's, outside Boston. We're primarily with paranoid schizophrenic populations and. um And that was amazing. But doing a lot of journaling and writing and read a book. Well, read Jack's Jack Harris, Emperor Wears No Clothes. And then also Natural Capitalism by a named Paul Hawken, which was about how business can be a force of progressive social and environmental change. You know, and just became more appreciative of the family company and like the opportunity that I had and the way my granddad had to run it and my And then my parents, oh just as an activist engine um to make the world better in different ways. But one of the first things we did, so, and then my grant, I was able to let my granddad know m shortly before he died, I was gonna dedicate my life to his passion. He died on March 7, 97, the same day Maya, my kid, Merlin now. uh was born. So was a, yeah, this is a big moment, kind of high five in and out. And then my dad was diagnosed stage four lung cancer like a month later. So I had like an incredible year with my dad, like learning the ropes around business and just life. And then he died in June of 98, marrying my sister to my brother-in-law, Michael Milam, who's our COO now. And my brother, Mike Bronner is our president. My mom is CFO, Trudy Bronner. um but um just having to grow up and quick. But one of the first activist things we did is put hemp seed oil into the soaps, hemp seed, I mean, the Omega-3 and Omega-6 makes the lather really emollient. But it was primarily a way of engaging on the drug wars like, okay, well, you know, how do I fill this fundamental like fucking commitment, you know, so, you know, you know, hemp was at this nexus of, you know, a non drug agricultural cropping schedule one, you know, it's the most ridiculous example of this out of control drug war. And then also as a you know, as a sustainable agricultural crop. And that kind of was the initial like activist platform that then we did the regenerative organic on the one hand, and then on the other, you know, work on hemp and then medical cannabis, you know, just the, you know, post 215 and all the big fights we had to fight here. um and then eventually engaging with the adult recreational campaigns. And I met Rick, uh Rick Doblin, in 2005 at Burning My First Burn. Went over and said, because at that point they were suing to break the El Soli monopoly that the only marijuana for studies was this crappy ass weed from the University of Mississippi that uh Was that G13 I think was the strain they said? Yeah. It was was shit. Yeah. And everything, you know, it just like the worst weed. Right. What would you say would be the biggest landmine you guys have had to dodge with psychedelic advocacy? uh Well, anyways, I went over to MapsCamp. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. We'll finish that up in a minute. Sorry, I totally interrupted you and then finished it and finished your story. So you met Rick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And no worries. me on track. yeah, so as but to the point of the question was, you know, at that point he was, you know, working on breaking that monopoly. We were suing the DEA over him. And, know, and I told him, like, hey, Rick, that, you know, this is getting body blows in on the drug war. But, you know, the end game here is LSD. And someday I'm going to help you. And Uh, and I also, learned about sanctuary, which was the Zendo of the time, um, in center camp and got a, you know, got some LSD liquid vial from somewhere. And, you know, I had this rad first meeting with Rick and then that night me and my campmates rolled out and we were all dosed in except one of my friends had taken a mushroom chocolate. And she was really ill and like within half an hour, you know, like passing out and like, um, it turned out she has this antibiotics that we're contraindicating with it. But I was like, Oh my gosh, well, I just heard about sanctuary. We've got to get her sanctuary. So she was like dead weight and we had to drag her like, you know, a half mile to center camp, you know, blazing on out. And I met Rick for the second time, um, you know, in 24 hours, but now in this kind of more therapist role. And we went into a tent and he was like, yeah, bring your friend over here and laid her down. she, you know, he's just calming her down and had her puking a bucket. And we're just all holding space. And it's like really beautiful way just seeing Rick operate and just like really calm our friend down and getting her in a really good spot. And then Rick said, sir, boy, he's like, yeah, you guys can go, you know, just come back in the morning. And I remember just giving my friend a huge hug and coming back in the next morning. And my friend was. oh I was like, my gosh, Rick's an angel. I can't believe it. What an angel. And, know, she was so, so ecstatic and it was like really cool way to meet Rick, both in his kind of more policy, like whatever mode, but then in this kind of therapist, you know, persona and, and, and yeah, gosh, I mean, as far as, know, you know, fast forward, you know, I joined the board. I don't even remember which year, but, Shawna Haley, um, was a board member who I replaced uh when she died. And Ashana was trans and amazing and a real strategician and gave maps to the first five million reserved for phase three trials and just an amazing woman. uh And yeah, you know, and then just been on this whole adventure uh sense of like really, you know, what are the different strategies to integrate medicines and, you know, all these maps, commission studies and the Hefter ones on the South Side and side and, and, know, just really starting to shift the narrative and the culture, you know, leading to. Oregon in 2020, now, you know, and just meeting Tom and Sri Ekkert in their vision of like, need to, you know, know, what's what's replicate what they're doing at John Hopkins and create this, you know, optimal set and setting for people to release and have these huge experiences. But outside of the medical pharma frame and, you know, like anybody can access and, more in like a psychoanalyst, you know, psychology frame, which I thought was really important. And then also that year we were the main supporters of the DC decriminator campaign because I also saw that there were wisdom there that like, you know, even the Oregon model, well, much more cost effective than the FDA pharma um still has a substantial cost and, you know, just getting educated by people and realizing that decriminalization allows for self-regulating communities. to grow medicine, sit for each other, and just much more economically access. Yeah, the color the Colorado model seems to really like digging in on that right now. uh Does just the personal when I was out there speaking to um you're talking about was Oshana Ohana. Oh, yeah, had she have a like there's like a shrine, I think, a psychedelic science 25. I remember I remember reading that and I was like, I brought that back. Sorry. But yeah. Yeah, I think the Colorado model seems to be a little more cost effective at what's going on out there, just from what I saw from the short time I was out there. Yeah, I mean, that's it. I mean, we're huge fans of like Sacred Planet Alliance, which is organizing entheogenic churches, you know, and sharing best practices and helping them with their legal posture under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. And, you know, I feel like that's like an all 50 state play. And we're seeing, you know, churches in Utah, of all places, you know, really flourish. And yeah, you know, I think like, you know, how to, yeah, know, integrating medicines into our, you know, spiritual communities, the way the indigenous hold the medicine, I think is the future. You know, and a lot of AA circles are already at your local church. you know, Bill Wilson was a huge fan of LSD for, for helping with, you know, getting a hold, a handle on things and now. Yeah, he talked about how it, uh, it really helped induce that spiritual kind of awe, which puts you in the right kind of mindset to kind of receive lessons, which I thought was a great idea. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's awesome. It's a, I love how the company would do is, there any, um, have you had any pitfalls or anything you've had to look out for while advocating for psychedelic medicine? um Yeah, oh I mean, I guess, yeah, I mean, we didn't need to navigate a wrongful death lawsuit that was bogus. It was just, you know, we had nothing to do with the situation, but a good friend had got a ketamine massage from a kind of underground provider in the uh area here. And we were sued for creating a culture where people would feel free to access that. And we don't know what happened exactly, but it was a fatal thing. then it's just like, and we're concerned that maybe he mixed up the medicine, like he was, who knows what happened. We're not sure, but just because our advocacy, like we got. That seems to be the thing with more uh exposure comes the more risk of stuff like that, the frivolous kind of stuff coming in. yeah, I could see how that uh could be a huge pitfall just uh being, like I said, the same place, same time, people just associate it. All right, so you're not just psychedelics and so. You're deep in the climate, fair trade, regenerative agriculture. You've got your hands in every cause really that matters out there. Kind of what we've been talking about here for a little bit. How do you guys go about picking your battles? Yeah, uh I I our philosophy as a family is like, know, whatever family members passionate about whatever cause, know, we'll support that, but it can't be abstract. You got to like actually care and kind of be involved. And personally, that's, you know, for me, that's psychedelic, you know, integration of psychedelic medicines and ending the drug war in a good way. which we were also big supporters of 110 in Oregon in 2020. And, you know, there was a real lesson, I think, for all of us that, like, you know, broad based decriminalization needs to go hand in hand with social wraparound social services, housing, we need to have housing, we need, you there's a lot of things we need to do at the same time to, you know, do this in a good way because, you know, obviously we had a huge backlash. was just unfortunate timing, the fentanyl crisis arrived like basically six months after. 110 passed and, you know, of course 110 got blamed. But, but yeah, you know, I'm huge, obviously, fan and passionate about psychedelic medicine. So that's a big reason why we picked that as a core issue area. And I think it resonates most with my granddad's vision of like, you know, how, you know, how do we actually go about creating, you know, an all one unity, you know, experience here on the globe? And, uh you know, I know there's other, you know, fasting and meditation and, you know, totally respect all the pads um and think they're all complimentary. But, you know, psychedelics, you know, people say, that's a shortcut. You're cheating or whatever. It's like a shortcut, like a fucking near death experience is a shortcut. know, dramatic ruling, you know, Yeah, I don't have to double click on that actually, and something that you said a little bit ago about how decriminalization is actually a better path for more integration to communal sacred practices and for better accessibility versus legalization. Do you have more that you want to say about that? Or for people who are just getting involved in psychedelics or want to be involved in some kind of way, what advice do you have or what can you paint for the future of that? Yeah, um I do think the approaches are complementary. I'm very much in favor of regulated access, especially for the psychedelically naive population, like our parents. They're going to want to see that kind well-regulated access point to avail themselves with this kind psychedelic healing. But that does come with a cost. And there's whole idea that you take psilocybin once and you're going to be cured of your depression forever. I mean, it doesn't work like that. It's like a lifelong relationship. Ideally, you're doing this once a year or once a quarter, whatever your rhythm is. But then having to pay regulated access rates each and every time, that doesn't make sense. So ideally, once you're comfortable with the medicine, you have a really profound healing experience, then you can feel comfortable plugging into a self-regulating community within the decriminalized part of the equation. So yeah, I think there's a real... And then some people aren't ready to sit in community and need to kind of do some one-on-one work and kind of work out their stuff. be in that kind of container. uh So yeah, I think all of it is great. think people get really passionate about one or the other, but we think both are necessary. And I'll just say the other big cause area that I'm personally really passionate about is regenerative organic agriculture. Interesting, I met Michael Pollan in the context of our GMO labeling activism. We're one of the main... and he's supporting oh the GMO labeling efforts in California and Oregon um and going up against the machine and breaking through in Vermont. the wheels started coming off the glyphosate machine. But ultimately, we realized even if we win and everyone says, OK, I don't want any more GMOs in my food. um conventional agriculture is still a disaster. And so then we focus on what's the solution. And then the regenerative organic is taking organic as a baseline and then putting in place next level soil health, animal welfare, like pasture-based criteria, and fair labor into a single consumer-facing standard. So we partner with Patagonia and Rodeo, which is like the godfather of the organic movement in the States. Feral Project and Compassion Road Farming. it's like, so that's my other big, I'm on the board of that, really passionate about that cause area. And interestingly, I met Michael in the context of both, and he kind of shares that passion. He wrote Omnivore's Dilemma, and just all about dietary and agriculture, and just the disaster of industrial agriculture, and what kind of farming should we support. And then he came over, and I met him in that context, and then I met him. Actually, John Gilmer's house had a MAPS board meeting when he was writing the, how to change your mind in that context. So anyway, so there, I mean, there might be something, there obviously is something about medicine connecting you to the global rhythms and the collective consumption pattern. It's like, okay, it's like, how do we regulate ourselves collectively on this planet through dietary choice and farming practice, which are such key drivers of a lot of what's going wrong. Um. Yeah, which I'm really curious about that too, to get your perspective on this, because I feel like there are so many people, and like I'm a therapist, I work with psychedelics as part of my practice, and so I see tons of people who will have these unitive state experiences on a psychedelic, where they feel connected to nature, they understand they're connected to everything, it's all a cycle, and they have this reverence and respect for nature that they maybe didn't have prior. but then it's hard for them to translate that into action, into sustainability, into activism. What would you say are like the best ways for people to do that or how is it so effortless for you or how can people better integrate their psychedelic state experiences to lead to more action? Yeah, well, um like one of the big one, you know, first things in the squad I was in, I was in a squad with um members of a church called Our Church in Arkansas that was formed in 1993 as a First Amendment challenge. I knew Sam Smith and a guy named Mark were in the squad. They're basically facing like 10 years of life or whatever, you know, in the States. It was like a big part of my awakening, you know, of like, holy shit, the drug war is like weaponized against know, counterculture activists and people of color and, know, just really waking up to that dimension of it. But they were also vegetarians. And, you know, and I was in this like kind of like a wide open state and they're, you know, just asked me like, you know, you know, why are you eating meat? you know, I remember just like smoking a big bowl and just kind of thinking and, you know, seeing and vision. I've got a knife when I'm in the store and I can like, you know, I can kill that cow or I could just. chopped down some vegetables. That was kind of my decision point and became vegetarian and then vegan. Fast forward now, I am in high solidarity with high animal welfare, pasture-based livestock ranchers and farmers. I do see how a farming ecosystem, especially like on a regenerative organic or biodynamic basis where you... like that there's a sustainable balance of plant animal life like in a wild ecosystem and it can all go together in a good way and animals can live a good life fulfilling their instinctual behaviors and They don't have to be crammed in cages, leading horrible, miserable lives. Unfortunately though, that's 99 % of the animals and the meat, dairy, eggs, that's on offer. So I would say a real important way to be activist is regardless if you're omnivore, vegetarian or vegan, is making sure you understand where your food's coming from and just spending money. We're creating the world. If you're just kind of like a choice of sign, like as a company, are we just going to buy the olive oil and the coconut oil on price and spec? going to actually figure out who's doing this in the right way and pay the appropriate price for people doing it the right way. And that's, think, with our plates. It's like you've got a fork is a pitchfork, your knife's butchering knife. What kind of farm are we supporting? Eating is an agricultural act. So I think that's a real. you know, immediate personal way that people can kind of exit from a very destructive system. And I won't say like I'm like the perfect paragon of, you know, choosing regenerative organic every single, you know, by I put my mouth, but like as a general, you know, generally trying to, you know, do that I think is very important. And something you can immediately do. Like once you have that, you know, okay, well what ways am I fucking up, you know, this beautiful, incredible ecosystem and nature that I'm embedded in, I realize I'm one with, you know, like, okay, well our diet, you know, our collective dietary maw is just consuming the world. I mean, it's just like crazy. So like, how do we... you know, how do I stop participating in that and redirect, you know, energy into the, you know, people who are taking care of their land and their animals and their people in a good way. you know, and like that. I think that's a real important way people can honor their experience, like without like having to completely upend their lives. Although that is a big thing. It is a big shift. You know, it's a big emotional, psychological spheres of shift to do that. uh I remember going into the first health food stores and even though was Dr. Bronner's grandkid, I was just kind of raised not in that vibe. So it was definitely a thing to do. But then, yeah, I think whatever profession, mean, obviously, think there's professions that resonate that are more kind of uplifting the world and more in service to the light. than others that are just more in service to money and aren't really helping very much. So I think that, you know, that's, you know, and that's a longer, you know, that obviously there's, there's a lot that goes into that kind of decision. And, know, especially when there's families on the line and whatever level of income you're used to, but. I think that's also an important way to honor these experiences. like we know, don't make any huge decision within three weeks or whatever, like ALB. Right, well, and especially like what you're saying, even it's like not even to be like a perfect paragon perfection or like doing everything like 100%. Like people don't have to go full vegan, especially not by the way, even just reducing consumption by 25%, 10%, even just being a little bit more conscious of our choices, reducing even consumerism. Like I'll talk a lot with my clients about just reducing some of their waste, just thinking a little bit more about how they are using, even if it's as simple as. instead of buying the thing from Amazon and doing same day delivery, just waiting for that like Amazon day and not like just having the most convenient or the most resources that are being used, just being more conscious of all of those resources and making little changes more gradually. Yeah, right on. if you are choosing to eat meat, like the grass fed, for that organic grass fed Just like where is the welfare of the animal? In general, that goes together with the welfare of the land. But yeah, exactly. And don't like that. Perfect be the enemy of the good. Because I've had a whole thing about like when the first Prius came on the market, was like I was finally able to get a Cobra, you know, the high end Mustang. was like my dream car. And then just as I was able to get it, the fucking Prius came on the market. And then then I'm like in this whole dilemma of like, man, like, I mean, it's like such a the initial model was kind of crappy and like blew all over the road. And I'm like, but it's important to be an early adopter and just help this thing. But I'm like, and I remember having a dream and I was like, I was like on the side of a hill and like this voice kind of on the radio is like, God says man, humanity should live in the sides of hills. And I was like, oh yeah, that's totally ecological and insulated. That makes a lot of sense. And then there was an advertisement for some huge track mansion home development. And I was like, oh, well, that's not what we're supposed to do. But I'll go check it out. So then in dream, customizing out this whole mansion, like, oh, whatever, countertops and all that stuff. And then there's like this big clock tower at the top of the hill. then the, and then the radio is like starts talking about, and then I'm present at the set of Jeffrey Dahmer. And this is like 20 years ago before I haven't seen the show. think they made a show about it. But anyway, 20 years ago is like, and he'd already been killed. it, but in the dream, was, um, it's kind of documentary about Jeffrey Dahmer and But Jeffrey Dahmer is playing himself. But all the rest of his family at the dinner table, which was, you know, all of sudden, Matt, were actors. And his father, like he says, Oh, yeah, pass the mashed potatoes. And he's like reaching for the mashed potatoes. And then Jeffrey Dahmer goes, writes his actor father's arm, you know, and I like I wake up like, holy, you know, freaked out. I'm like, oh, oh, my gosh, I'm like a cannibal. If I get the cobra, like he fucking bit like a cobra. can't like fucking get it. cobra, you know, so I initially, you know, it was like going on that. But then I'm like, well, wait a minute. You know, the serpent in the Gnostic read of Genesis is actually the, you know, like, you know, like to hope is kind of the, you know, fascist, you know, kind of superego, like, you know, pleasure to nine. Yeah, the Demiurge, right in the Gnostic read. And that actually the serpent actually initiates the world of salvation, Kundalini and everything. Yeah, kind of how Judas was doing Jesus a favor by betraying him so he could save the world in that sense. Yeah, you know, these interesting counter reads and like, Kermit Hesse and Damien and, and, know, so then I'm like, man, my motherfucking, my biblical fascist pleasure denying, you know, warping. shit that I've been spending so much time fucking getting out from under is now translating in this new echo fascist kind of shit doing the same thing. You know, since my super ego is like, okay, it's not drove anymore. Now it's going to be motherfucking ecological, whatever, you know, it's like, want to drive my Cobra and fucking let my hair go free. So, you know, so then but then I was like, okay, okay, I just gotta make it so so all of my mate, I got the Prius. I was like, well, Well, you can't drive faster pretty much anyway. But then the next car was an Audi S4. Nice. That was net balance. Yeah. And now it's a Tesla with, you know, we've got a bumper sticker that's, pre madness edition, but that that kind of puts it all together. And it's got kind of linear dragon rainbow dragons on the outside. Nice. Nice. m So you've been building something that's going to outlast us all. That's rare. How do you make it stick past hype cycles? Yeah, I think that's part of the, how do you say, the heritage and the gift that we've been giving at it's second legacy. Yeah, that it's grown organically and now it is growing faster and we do have customers coming in more for its versatility and biodegradability and. functionality than, you know, any, you know, not necessarily knowing about or caring particularly about all the fair trade and regenerative organic and trade policy reform and activism that we do. But um yeah, I mean, I think like even even then it is such a, you know, such a great product. It's such a great soap. You know, most quote unquote liquid soaps on the market aren't so they're actually detergents and they don't contain any soap. There's actually, if you Google punk rock soap opera, there's another video under another name that I might remember. But punk rock soap opera is about Dom Bowles, is a drummer in the Germs, like the seminal punk rock band in LA back in the late 70s, early 80s. And in 2008, he was driving his girlfriend to an NA meeting and got pulled over and a cop tested a bottle of Dr. Browner's for like a whole bunch of different drugs and it came up positive for GHB. So the punk listeners light up and we're getting bombarded with calls like, hey, Don Bould is in jail because there's GHB in a bottle of soap. You know, and I'm like, well, why is that my problem that, you know, some punk rocker wanted to put GHB in a bottle of soap? That's not, you know. You know, so but then Mary uh Patton, who is uh head of Amoeba Records Marketing and working with MPP at the time, she calls me up. She's like, you know, good. You know, he down to my good friend like he goes. He takes your soul everywhere, dude. He just loves your soul. All right. OK, I'll talk to him. And so, you know, tonight he's in jail. It's like Easter weekend. And I got online, I hadn't at that point tried GHB. And I saw one of the slang terms was soap or whatever, because I guess it tastes kind of soapy or whatever. And fast forward, GHB is great. Be careful, obviously, with interactions and stuff. Don was like, look, man, I've done every drug ever. I was a heroin addict for 20 years. I don't like GHB. I love your soap. I was like, all right, brother, you convinced me. So we went to bat and we had our PR. was like, Jermaronga jailed over soap. um And uh we ordered the drug test kits that the cops were using. And we were already doing our press, but we still didn't know for 100 % that this wasn't GHB. But we had enough faith. But then we took those drug test kits and tested our soap and it came up positive for GHB, know, change to whatever color red. But the fake soaps, all the competitor, you know, fake soaps, even in the health food store, that didn't have any soap, they came up negative. You know, so was actually like a really good time. It's a horrible test for obviously GHB, but it was a great test for real soap versus fake soap. So we made a fun video about that. But there's something about like liquid soap and it's more the reason other companies don't use it so much is that it's hard to get viscosity to build viscosity without you. You if you use our soap, it's generally like, you know, it's not thick, you know, but it's 40%. It's much more concentrated than those other products. So it's like superficially not, you know, in some ways, like, know, whatever marketers like, well, I don't have to pay as much money and I have this really thick product, but it's just, you know, like when you actually use it over time, it's like our soap is going to last way longer. It's much more value value proposition. It's just better in a lot of ways. And then my granddad, you know, even if you're not like super down with everything he's talking about or necessarily understand what he's saying, you know, it's, it's got a unique vibe. you know, it's got this old apothecary vibes and. you know, a message of peace and love. so, so yeah, you know, I think we just kind of have like, em yeah, something, you know, magical and compelling that attracts people, you know, there's a maybe a barrier to trying it in the first place, but then once you're in, you're in kind of thing. Right. m easy to get addicted to it. Love it. Hmm. All right, think we're about running out of time, so I one more question. um So if all of Dr. Bronner's work, psychedelics, justice, and environment, all lands the way you guys are hoping and everything in the next decade, say, what does that world look like? Well, I mean, if we're talking about what, the hope for dream, heaven on earth, all of us are, yeah, it's not gonna happen in 10 years. mean, these are generational. I I was in an Ibogaine vision um and I was at in a... I was at the wedge. So kind of my childhood surf break or it's actually more of a bodyboard, skim board, like huge, huge wave that jacks up by this jetty. And, you know, lots of amazing experiences growing up. But in vision, um the wave that was jacking up was had all the life of earth in it, like all like, you know, all the forests and the cities and, you know. farms and you know and then like you know and just kind of like you can you know just spend time just going in like you know super detailed like you know people being armed dying laughing crying like just the whole spectrum of humanity and nature and it's like you know it's like you know and then to the horizon where the swells in the water coming like all the generations coming you know and just like this vision of deep time that it's just like you like, you know, each each generated rise and habits time and then the next, you know, and so, yeah, so, you know, 10 years from now is probably going to look a lot like now, unfortunately, but, you know, but hopefully directionally going in a direction of. you know, more people being more compassionate, more empathic, hopefully fucking Trump, this whole fucking nightmare living through is like an object lesson of how not to motherfucking be on this planet. And, yeah. And Yahoo. And yeah, you know, and just this whole whatever fascism and humanity that's like having its moment. Hopefully that, you know, yeah, that burns burns its way out and we have a counter wave. come that's you know maybe Bernie Sanders is our there's a two-term president who knows That'd be great. Right. It kind of reminds me what the Brotherhood of Eternal Love used to say. They used to say something about finding Jesus in the curl. Yeah, so that kind of your whole wave metaphor, it kind of brings it back to what you're talking about earlier with the Gnostic finding Jesus in that curl, the whole generations, the whole just keep coming, splashing back up. um I like that. you brought up the Brotherhood. So we've got a lot of connects. Like that's actually one of our main kind of lineages. It was a dead family and Brotherhood, and culture. so Mike Hinson, Sr., he was an out in the summer and know, named Francis the Perfect Wave. He became like high up in the Brotherhood. And his son Mike Hinson works at Bronner's. And Mike Henson Sr. recently died. He passed in February. And he was a friend and just admired my granddad. And actually, the Brotherhood financed a film called Rainbow Bridge, which was kind of like a documentary. But I really call it when it's like a biopic or something. Whatever. It was like about a comedy in Mali, but it was like actors and actresses. But. And they flew my granddad out to lay down his wisdom. And it's kind of the best of the worst of the 60s or early 70s. But then the last half hour is Jimi Hendrix, like one of his last live performances, this shredding on the set of the volcano in Maui. Just incredible. Rainbow Bridge is highly recommend just getting the album. um But. But yeah, but fast forward. So my kids and like Melinda Merriwether, is my kids' mom, um she also worked with us. um Yeah, Mike and it turned out that Mike Henson Sr. He went on to found endless bubbles. So he um was like a student of all the big bubble masters in the world and like selling like these big bubble wands and like, you know, so all these like synchronicities with us and what we do with our phone and uh and but of course, you know, a beautiful soul surfing legend. um So his paddle out was on his birthday on the end of June. at Windon Sea down in La Jolla. And yeah, it was beautiful. like, you we all paddled out and it was like, you know, like, 200 surfers, know, just like honoring my, you know, it's big like kind a hundred yard circle and Mike Hinson Jr. and fam were kind of in the center with his ashes and it's really deep in the heart. And this Coast Guard ship was like blasting a water cannon and like, you know, just for the occasion. It's like so awesome, you know, and the sea slugs like were like shredding, like it's kind of legendary, like surf rock band. Or Reo is a surf Faris or something, you know, or the next gen, the next gen of them. It was all these OG, you know, surfer cats and, you know, brotherhood. um and Melinda, so she was sending me, uh I think it was Chuck Wine or something was the like the main brotherhood cat who's also the producer of Rainbow Bridge. Like this thing about like we're all cells in the body of Gaia. Like she like this is like Like the night after she sends it, know, it's like, you know, we're all cells in the body of Gaia and the Rainbow Bridge is about like kind of taking, you know, getting into our higher shockwreck centers and connecting with the higher planetary centers and making that Rainbow Bridge happen so peace on earth can go down. And then right as she sent me that Mike Hinson Jr., my friend, sent a picture. of an overhead shot of that paddle out with rainbow going through the where the coast guard was spreading it like a reserve rainbow coming off would look like a cell you know of all of us it could look like a cell like kind of blasted Awesome. amazing. I love that's that's probably my favorite thing about that was just being in the psychedelic community is these synchronicities that come up all the time like, you know that oh, you know that okay. Yeah, and everything just works together. It's like, holy crap. How did that happen? Just by letting go with the flow, right? Yeah, man, between our church and brotherhood. my gosh. Right. Yeah, our church, I was going to say, you know, we were talking about that earlier and, you know, you went up to veganism off that. Speaking of the dead, just, you know, why every once in a while you get shown the light, the strangest places, if you look at it right. The same little uh kind of call back there. So, yeah. Yeah, for me, it's been like a full circle conversation. It's great. You're doing rainbow gathering, psychonauts, the Virgin States. uh You know, just live in the same ethos is sharing the same ethos for 30 years now. And it's it's it's great that uh great that you're able to do that and and all the good you're doing with your company. I really appreciate it. Yeah, well, right on. Well, thank you so much for having me on and wow, I can't wait to check out some of your other episodes because this has been, I'm to have a great conversation. Yeah, so yeah, no, it's it's it's been really great. I've enjoyed having you. Yeah, we've I've been really lucky with with getting some really amazing guests together. So yeah, check us out. I'd love to hear any feedback you got on it. So, Valerie, do you have anything else for him? I just wanted to say thanks again. Always fun hanging with you, David. Always good to chat with you. Nice to get a little deeper in this and hear some of your wisdom and just thanks for everything that you do. Yeah, great conversation. Thank you, Wow Right on well, thank you very much. I sure we sure appreciate it and we'll hopefully talk to you soon you you you you you All right, so that was David Bronner. He's the CEO, Chief Engagement Officer with Dr. Bronner. So Valerie, what'd you think of the interview? great. I really enjoy his stories, his wisdom. He's such a model and a beacon for what successful business can be while also prioritizing the planet and ecosystem. And he's just such a beacon of humility as well as success, which you don't often see, especially in the business world. Yeah, he had some great stories. love, you know, as we talked about a little bit, all the synchronicities and stuff that comes up. It's really cool to be able to connect just, I mean, from somebody like him, he's got this whole family business he's been doing. He's got soap all over the world and just to have those same kind of synchronicities unfold and see how, you know, like we've been, you know, living the same kind of ethos for, you know, 30 years, 20 years. And it's amazing. It's so cool to, you know, kind of bring that all together as a nice, Kind of wrap up. Yeah, it shows how he lives the magic in everyday life, like the magic of psychedelic experiences, the magic of these synchronicities, like he just walks that every day in his life as I think we all tend to do when we wake up to the magic of the world, we have more synchronicities. Right, try to embrace that you will you embrace as I think as you talked about in our last episode you're here embrace those contradictions and when you embrace those contradictions that that's when the synchronicity and the magic really starts happening. Swim in that paradox and that's when the magic unfolds. Right. So yeah, thank you guys for tuning in. uh Check out Sandbags. uh And if you guys want to support the show, go to patreon.com to Virgin States. Less than a cup of coffee a month. You'll get high quality uploads, no ads. Come and take a listen. Support the movement. We're building something. We got the new Discord server going. Lots of people. Almost 100 people in there already. We just started that a couple weeks ago and it's amazing. Yeah, a couple hundred people in the discord come say hi uh Send a message to me Valerie Wonderful as always good to see you uh Thank you so much for coming and helping me out with this. Well Bryan uh Bryan's doing his play. I hope he breaks his leg doing that Yes, Thanks so much for having me and I'd love to come back sometime. Awesome, yeah, I'd love to have you back. uh I sure appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. Thank you to the audience out there. You guys rock. I be here without you. So you guys keep exploring. you you