Cesar Marin: Microdosing, Midlife, and Reinvention

What happens when a 25-year career at CNN ends — and a new life begins?

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Cesar Marin, former CNN producer and founder of Microdosing Over 50, about how psychedelics helped him navigate midlife, identity loss, and personal reinvention.

Cesar shares his journey from broadcast media to becoming an advocate for intentional microdosing later in life. We explore the difference between microdosing for healing vs optimization, how intention shapes outcomes, and why people over 50 face unique integration challenges.

We also discuss:
 • Microdosing psilocybin vs LSD
 • Career loss and psychedelic-driven reinvention
 • Presence, connection, and integration practices
 • How media shapes psychedelic narratives
 • Why midlife may be the most powerful time for change
 • Healing vs performance framing in psychedelic use
 • Stigma, legality, and education
 • Building a mission-driven life after burnout

This conversation is about more than substances — it’s about agency, curiosity, and what happens when you stop outsourcing your meaning.

🎧 Extended version available on Patreon
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🧠 For listeners interested in microdosing, midlife transitions, and psychedelic culture

https://cultivatingwisdom.net/

⏱️ Chapter Markers

00:00 – Introduction & Cesar’s background
 01:45 – 25 years at CNN and getting laid off
 04:30 – Discovering psychedelics at 55
 06:40 – Cultivating Wisdom & microdosing over 50
 10:15 – Loss, grief, and mission-driven work
 13:10 – What shifted personally
 17:45 – Early doubts and first psychedelic experience
 22:23 – Fun vs healing: why people stay
 22:41 – How media shaped his psychedelic voice
 26:13 – Bad headlines and stigma
 28:26 – Why storytelling matters
 29:18 – Midlife fear and reinvention
 32:12 – “It’s not almost over — it’s just starting”
 33:18 – Integration for older adults
 37:55 – Meditation, presence, and connection
 39:13 – Healing vs optimization
 43:45 – Microdosing LSD vs psilocybin
 46:36 – Psychedelic commercialization
 47:47 – Public episode wrap-up
 48:31 – Post-interview reflections
 50:05 – Bryan’s takeaway
 52:11 – Healing vs optimization framing
 54:17 – Outro & Patreon plug

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Transcript

0:15

Welcome back to the Divergent States. I'm Elite, founder of Psychonaut and host tonight. We've got um back going strong still for season two. I'm back with Bryan. How you doing, Absolutely. Yeah, we're having a killer season starting out this year, you know, so. Right. And now we got Caesar Marin. How are you doing, I'm doing so, so amazingly. Thank you so much for inviting me to be part of your conversation, to be part of your mycelial network that you spread out. uh It was funny, I was telling you guys before, I was telling my wife this morning, I was gonna do this podcast. She said, it's cool. You know what's so special about it? And I was like, you don't understand who these guys had on as guests. mean, Rick Doblins, just everyone who is somebody in the space, he's talked to them. uh, Leonard Picard, uh, Reggie love. And she literally said, and why is he speaking to you then? So I feel, I feel really, I feel really humbled and honored to be here. Um, thank you so much for what you're doing. Thank you for starting these conversations. it's through conversations like yours that, that I have the ability to reach other people because you poke at their childhood curiosities and then they can come to me and ask questions, especially. if they're over 50, which is the crowd that I mostly work with. So again, thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm really excited about this conversation. Yeah, me too. I really appreciate it. I'm sure Bryan does too. We've been, you know, 100%. Not to spill the beans here too early, but Caesar, your background with CNN, that's usually where I go to for my news. So I'm like, a little giddy about that right now. Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate it. was, it was, it was definitely a great foundation for me, especially for what I'm doing now. And I spent 25 years at CNN behind the cameras. I was never in front of the cameras, but it was, it was, it was seeing what worked and seeing how people gravitated and people like you would sort of, know, CNN, let me go to what they're saying or what they're doing. And that trusted voice that truly helped me to create the foundation for what I'm doing now, right? That 25 years at CNN, even though the last 15 years I was there, I worked in sports. So I didn't have to worry about all the politics and all the other nuttiness, but I was affected by the breaking news or, you know, even 9-11, there was no sports, so it's all hands on board. So was definitely 25 years. was half of my adult life. Yeah, that's a long time. Half of my adult life was spent inside that CNN building. So I'm definitely grateful. I mean, I did get laid off, but the universe does things that sometimes we're not sure why, but it was the thing that ever happened to me. incredibly grateful for the time I did spend at CNN. So thank you. Thank you for the time you've watched. Hopefully somewhere in there, you got to see something that I might've been producing. Well, we know that you have... a very successful podcast as well. I mean, I would say clearly that door led, like when that door closed, another one opened right away for you. And I'm gonna venture a guess out here that you're probably significantly more passionate about this project than probably any projects in CNN, not to downplay any of them, but just, you know, it's your own thing. There's a different kind of fuel there. That's so true. That's so true. And it's awesome that you say that. My mom always said, She got this sense like you're missing your calling. There's something about you. And why are you working for somebody else? Why are you literally rowing somebody else's boat when you can be rowing your own? And I did, I rowed this huge CNN corporate boat for a long time. And it wasn't until I rowed my own boat that I realized that I could have this passion for something that's mine. That yes, sometimes the water's gonna be rocky and it's gonna be choppy and it's gonna be, wanna jump off the boat. But there's that satisfaction when it's yours, when it's your project. And like you said, when it's something you believe in. mean, psilocybin psychedelics changed my life. They really did. And they came at a wonderful time. This isn't something that I've been doing all my life. I haven't been a psychonaut all my life. They came right when they knew it. So for me, it's really, like you said, it's this calling, it's this passion. I wake up every day excited about doing podcasts like you guys are doing, excited about doing new content, excited about having these conversations, excited about... wearing a shirt that says microdosing. So hopefully it'll start a conversation, right? Yeah. That's that to me, you're right. It's no longer like work. I don't see it as seeing it was work as much as passionate I was about producing TV and telling these stories on television and trying to figure out what's really going to captivate people and what's going to keep people from, you know, hitting that control for the 27 minutes that I was in charge of that airtime. um That seemed like work. This doesn't seem like work. This seems like what else can we do? Where else can we plug in? Who else can we talk to? Yeah, let's sell some shirts. Yes, let's sum some courses. Yes, let's try to put together retreats for people over 50. Yes, let's try to speak at conferences and be part of the conversation. as yes, it's work, but through all of it, it's all through the manifestation of what I call love you wealth. This isn't the F you wealth of I want to get big or I want to be an influencer or check out. This is what's going on. And never do making recommendations. You'll never hear me say, hey, you should microdose. It's really gonna help you. It's, hey, I microdosed and this is how it helped me. So it's that storytelling ability that came from CNN has really helped me to, create something for myself that's work but doesn't feel like work, that's passion and desire and love, which I find fascinating that I can do that on daily basis. Yeah, it's a great place. mean, you're you founded what cultivating wisdom in your podcast is microdosing over 50. I got those. oh So yeah, we, funny story is, you know, I went, was dealing with, and if you've ever heard about me or heard me talk, you know, I'm very open about the relationship that I had with cannabis. I had a pretty toxic relationship with cannabis. And I don't knock on cannabis. Cannabis is a beautiful medicine when it's used with intentions. But for me, it's just, cannabis had the better of me. So at CNN, I would be hiding my cannabis situation. When psychedelics come into my life and they open up my curiosity and I start this thing called cultivating wisdom in the back of my mind, and I'm openly talking to people at CNN, hey, I'm microdosing. They're like, what are you talking about? Yeah, I'm microdosing. I'm using psilocybin, a really small amount, supracetual. I come in, look at my shows, and they're like, dude, your shows are on fire. And you've become, holy cow, this light, awesome. And I started to share the story, and I wanted something. I wanted something where I could manifest the fact that I'm using psychedelics, right? That they've helped me. But everything that was out there was very what? It was very trippy or psychedelic-ish or tie-dye. And I went, look, man, I'm 55 years old. If a guy 55 years old starts talking to you about mushrooms and about psychedelics with some tie-dye shirt on with all this gray hair, what are most people going to say? Listen, hippie, listen, donor, why you go listen to your Grateful Dead 8 track tapes and come back from the woods when you're not high and maybe we can have an adult conversation. And that's where Cultivating Wisdom, the apparel brand was born. Cultivating Wisdom was born out of the necessity for me to be able to manifest the fact that I was microdosing and let people know and not finding how I could. And that's where the apparel brand came in. We created shirts that say microdosing, right? Why? Because that starts conversations. Someone says, you microdose? I've heard about that. I've read about that. Can you cultivate me with some wisdom? We talk about mushrooms without... sort of being talking about mushrooms. is that mushrooms? what's up? yeah, they're portabellos or whatever. Remember, this is your brain. This is your brain on drugs. This is your brain. This is your brain on psilocybin. You just have more, it's more connections. It's just being part of who we are. It's part of, what do the mushrooms teach us? They teach us much love. That's what it's about. It's about spreading much love. So you can have these conversations. And if you know you know, you're, that's mushrooms, right? Yeah, come here, guys. High five. You know, I'm microdosing LSD. No way. Really? Yeah, it's going awesome. And you have a reliable source. Yes, of course. You're part of the community. Come here, give me a hug and then give me your phone number and then we'll chat. So it does that or it taps at the curious. Oh, mushrooms. Does that really work? Your shirt says psilocybin changed my life. Did it really? How? And most people are going to be like, oh, wait a minute. Come here. Let me tell you. So that's where that started. And then out of that and me sharing my story and people my generation, people over 50 coming and say, hey, Caesar, what are you doing? Like, what is that microdosing thing that you talk about? Like, how does that work? That's where I created microdosingover50.com. And that became the platform for people who are already microdosing and maybe how else can you tap in? What other little exercises can you do with your microdosing? There is a course at A to Z on how to microdose, what microdosing is. A lot of that you can find online on the content that I do. I'm now presently doing a 30 day series on microdosing, especially just specifically for people over 50. um So it's that educational content. And then I created through that, the scent of like what I talked about, I want to create Love You Wealth. And through that, I created this podcast called the Love You Wealth podcast with a really dear, dear friend of mine, Gary Seahorse. uh But unfortunately, The universe um said that Gary's time was up that his mission was complete About a month ago at the age of 55. So now we're we're refiguring out what we're gonna do with the podcast I saw I got to continue on with Gary's legacy. He was an incredible human being So that's that's that's there right now still right at the podcast. I think you guys know It's a beautiful way to communicate. It's a beautiful way to tell these stories of what's going on So I have to continue that but right right now It's, I know, and again, I'll be very vulnerable here. I know that I have to produce a goodbye, um, episode for Gary. I haven't been able to. It's just been, yeah, it's just, it's, I'll get through a minute and then I'm like, I have to stop. I can't. So I have, I have to find that and we'll move forward with the podcast. So thank you for, for, for, you know, poking me about the podcast because it is something that I don't want to put in the, in the rear view mirror. So I appreciate you talking about the podcast because it's something that definitely I need to move forward and address. Well, and condolences for you. Yeah, condolences. Before we get too much into the main conversation real quick, a quick note. Divergent States is totally independent, no corporate backing. If you want to help keep it that way and get access to extended episodes, uncut video, bonus conversations, you can join the Patreon at patreon.com slash Divergent States. Also recently, we got chosen as Zendo Project Ambassadors. So Zendo teaches psychedelic peer support, de-escalation. and how you can actually show up for people going through these challenging states. If you want to take one of their courses, you can use our code divergentS10 for a 10 % discount. We get a little bit of it. It helps us out. And you get 10 % off your training with them. So we're going to take a quick music break. We're going to get back, and we'll talk to Cesar a little I'm shining, shining on my head. I'm shining, shining on my head. Welcome back everyone. That was Drip. You guys check him out on Spotify, Bandcamp, all that. He's got some real good music out there. You we love doing Psychonauts and promoting their music. So you guys got something, drop it in, let us know, hit us up on email. Back with Caesar. Caesar, you know, I kind of want to start just at your story. What brought you into this work, especially kind of in your mid fifties, you kind of talked about it a little bit in the intro, but what shifted for you personally? It was, you know what it really was? It was the presence of now, Psychedelics, and I had shared earlier, and I'm hopefully you caught it, that psychedelics didn't come into my life until the age of 55. I had a relationship with cannabis, a toxic relationship with cannabis, but psychedelics had never been, I'd always been stigmatized, bad, they're horrible, oh my God, you're going go crazy. And from the moment that they became part of my life, from the moment I got that calling from the mushrooms, as they call, as they say, um a lot of things quickly shift from my perspective of myself, from the potential that I saw now that I had, that before I didn't have, um the sense of, and people have asked me, Caesar, what would have been of your life if psychedelics had not come into your life? as you get laid off from CNN, considering the toxic relationship you had with cannabis, what would that Caesar Marin, where would he be three years later? And I feared to even think what that would have been. So psychedelics totally shifted my thinking, totally shifted my mind, said, no, you can do this. You have something that nobody else has. Nobody's talking about microdosing over 50. Nobody's talking about psychedelics over 50. This is your platform. This is your niche. This is what you're going to talk about and now run with it. And it's been that and it's been building, right? And look, entrepreneurship is incredibly hard. Being a founder is difficult. There's days where the sailing is smooth and everything's going right and you're signing a contract and everything's great. And there's days where it's like, Holy cow, how are we going to keep the lights on? Like I just, want to go get a job at Home Depot. I can't, can't do this anymore. um But When, like we talked about earlier, when it's a mission, this isn't a job. Yes, I have to do this to provide for my family, for things to keep food in the refrigerator, but it's more of a mission. It's more about touching people. It's more about saying, look, I'm gonna have a conversation with five people about what I'm doing. Two of them are gonna say, druggy, stoner, loser, crazy, uh jump off a building. You're gonna lose your life, you're gonna end up in jail, you're gonna end up in a looney tune. Okay. I know people that did psychedelics, they ended up in a looney tune. No, you don't. You're have two people that you're poke at their childhood curiosity. And they're gonna be like, what, wait, hold on a second. Back up. Psychedelics are being used as medicine and as therapy? me. You can have that one person, that one person, that they're gonna say, holy cow, what Caesar went through, that's what I'm going through. And look at him now. thriving because he microdosed and that microdose made him more creative. That microdose made him more empathetic. That microdose made him more open to change. That microdose made him more present. Those macrodoses really opened up his coconut and he was able to figure out stuff that maybe he couldn't. No? So for me, the change in the last three years that these molecules have been part of my life, both in the microdosing and both in the macrodosing, both in therapeutic, solo and community, both in jungle experiences in Columbia by myself with a shaman in Ayahuasca, or whether it was 5-Me-O DMT in the jungle of Jamaica, every single one of those experiences has had such a profound change on my life that I couldn't fathom. I tell people five years ago, they would have said, Caesar, look, five years from now, you're going to be a thought leader in the psychedelic space talking about your experiences with psychedelics. I'd be like, dude, how much drugs have you done? You're crazy. Not gonna happen. And yet here we are. Yeah, I mean, that's very true. There's at a certain point you just kind of your dealt cards that you weren't expected and just kind of got a roll with it sometimes. And that's one of the beauty of psychedelics. I find that if you do roll with it a little bit, things turn out for the better most of the time. So was there any early skepticism or doubts that you really had to tackle? ah from myself or from other people? Mainly from yourself, I would say more like internal doubt. It was right from the start. was crazy because the first time I gave myself consent to ingest psychedelics, I bought a chocolate bar and I'd taken a square. um And being a cannabis addict, you don't have to smoke the whole thing to get high. You take a hit or two, you're good to go. So I thought maybe that little piece of chocolate. So that first time, I inadvertently had a microdose. um And I felt a smile, but there was nothing there. And it wasn't until a week later where I had half of the chocolate bar that things changed and they changed so quickly. And it was incredible because Albert Huxley talks about, you know, when they coined the phrase psychedelics, was like to fathom hell or feel angelic, take a pinch of psychedelic. um And that first real dosage was that. Like I fathomed, I felt angelic. Like I was like, oh my God, that's what my hands feel like. That's what it feels like to breathe. Look at all these beautiful humans that are around me. This is amazing. And yet when I got in the car and I drove back home from this bicycle ride that I was on, I literally had my own bicycle ride, my first big experience. I was on a bike ride here in Atlanta with about 300 people. So I went from that to driving home and my conscious saying, what are you doing? What the is wrong with you? You're the father of three kids and you're sitting here behind the wheel of a car. That's like a ton. hallucinating as the lights go off. What happens if you crash into another car? What happens if you kill somebody? What happens if you kill yourself? And is this what you're doing at the age of 55? You're chasing highs? So it was crazy. And of course I got home and right away as a good journalist, I was like, what just happened? And that's when I realized, wait a minute, psychedelics are being used for therapy, psychedelics are being used. And it was also the out to the toxic relationship with cannabis. because one of the things, obviously, if you've microdosed successfully, that you know that intentions are a big part of success. My intention was to the toxic relationship with cannabis. And right away, the microdose was like, this is how we're gonna do it. So there was no skepticism. Like right away, I believed. I saw it, I did my homework. Like I was, as a journalist, I dove, like brah, bah, bah, bah documentaries, who else is talking about this? And it was funny because at the time, This was right before, this is November, 2022. This was right before Wonderland, the conference in Miami. So I was like, wait a minute, there's like a Super Bowl of psychedelics. And there's these like, there's these Aaron Rodgers of psychedelics and Brett Farbs, you know, in Rick Doblin and in Paul Stamets and Paul Austin and all these other figures. And I was like, I'm in. So there was literally no skepticism. Now, from people around me, for sure, from my kids, yes, from my parents, 100%. But from my lady, from my wife, she was like, I got you. I'll see it, you know what mean? I'll support you. So I had a good support system around me, which is incredibly important in these situations. ah So I was lucky in that sense. I didn't, I'll be honest with you, I didn't have any skepticism. I went in and I went in as a recreational curiosity. I wanted to get high, that's the only reason. I didn't buy that chocolate bar to find healing. I bought it because I wanted to blast off. I wanted to see the things. I knew high, the cannabis wasn't doing it really for me. So yeah, no, I was sold. I bought the ticket right away and went, I want to ride back on. How else? Give me a season pass. All lifetime members. Yeah, that's one of things I point out a lot. eh It is cool because a lot of people get into just psychedelics because they are fun, but a lot of people stay in them because they're healing. I love that you said that. I love that you said that because that's so true. It really does. em you know, it's very true. You see it a lot. I I've seen it in Psychonaut for 17 years now. We're coming up on our 17 year birthday. em But how did your media background shape the way you speak about this stuff? um I it you know what it it forged how I have Communications with people right because because we have to have intelligent communications, right? I can't be saying here dude, you got to try magic mushrooms because you're gonna be awesome and you go save yourself It's gonna be can't that's not now I can say hey, know what? There's these molecules that exist that were they grow on the earth like the earth is given to us and used intentionally used with respect used knowing that it's not a magic pill, that there's some work that needs to be done. When you can have that smart conversation, I think that that's what's needed, right? Because there's a lot of smart people. There's a lot of smart people. There's a lot of really good people. There's a lot of good clinicians. There's a lot of good scientists. There's a lot of good... But there's also a need for people who can be the face of, right? Who can have smart conversations. without being too clinical, right? Of the molecules, of the atoms, of the protons that happen once you thinsetize the psilocybin and it goes into the liver and, you know, but at the same time, it's not, I don't look like someone that just came back from Burning Man, right? Or someone that just came back from Woodstock and it's like, yeah, I was psychedelic. So I think that what I learned in media, what I learned in my 25 years at CNN, from even like the small anchors, like looking at those anchors that were convincing and the reason why they were convincing was they looked at the camera. They weren't off looking in other places. They were always engaged, right? Like that is something that was taught to me at CNN from seeing what worked and what didn't work and who was convincing and who wasn't convincing because that's what I wanna do. I wanna have convincing conversations. I want people, I wanna at least be the two that I poke at the child with curiosity. Because the other two that are going to think that I'm a hippiest donor, they're not going listen to me no matter what I say. So I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to those two that I'm poking at their childhood curiosity, but I'm definitely talking to that one that's going to say, a minute, he lost his job, I lost my job. He's been divorced, I've been divorced. His kids don't call that much more anymore. My kids don't. He suffered on-age set depression. That's what I'm going through. And if I can do that in a convincing way and show that how these molecules have helped me deal with all these things that come up at 50, then I'm on the right path. I'm on the right path. And again, I'm grateful for CNN. there's someone who can say, what are you talking about? Dude, you gave blood, sweat, and tears, and after 25 years, they kicked you out the door. No, but it gave me so much. It gave me so, so much more. That's why I'm internally grateful for the lessons that I learned at CNN because now it's just me using them to move forward and to sharing that message in that same credible way that CNN does to talk about this, to talk about something that's not really talked about and to talk about something that CNN's not gonna talk about it. They're not gonna do the story of the veteran who went to an ayahuasca ceremony and got much better. Now he's taking other veterans. to get help? No, but they will do the story. Pilot takes shrooms, try to down plane. m Yeah, I saw that one the other day, by the way. Remember that? that was yeah, that was yeah. Yeah, it was even the day after I was like, you know, I've done shrooms like quite a few times and I've never had something two or three days later or a day later even that I'm like, Oh, I'm going to open a plane of an air, you know, open the door of an airplane. Just like I said. And I made this commentary after that, you know, in different places, in different groups, different chat groups and stuff, and people that I talked to. um The mushrooms didn't make that pilot do what he did. The pilot's mental imbalance, which wasn't seen by his employees, was what really made that pilot do what he did. um So that, you know, we have to be the media. When I had Rick Doblin on the podcast, and it was funny, he was our first guest, um he talked about, because I said, Rick, what do we need at this present moment? We got to wait for the FDA. That's going to take some time. Is Ibogaine, is the bulga going to be FDA approved before? Most likely, but you know why? Because it doesn't have the recreational component to it. But in the meantime, what can we do? And Rick was like, just tell stories. Tell your stories. Share your stories. We need the testimonials. We need the seizures, we need the divergent states, we need the third waves, we need the maps, we need these people. We need them to sort of share the conversation intelligently and in an engaging way. And um I hope that that's what I can do. I hope that if people see my content and they say, hey, you know what, I wanna be... know, the microdosing for people from 35 to 45. That's not Caesar. That they can say, well, look how he's doing it. You know, he's being smart about it. He's not preaching to me. You know, he's not saying, I can't believe these things are illegal. He's just, see, he's having a smart conversation. And I think if I can leave that, if that's part of my, also my legacy is as we share these stories, you know, uh I hope that that could be part of it. Yeah. Speaking of which quick pause, if you want the extended conversation, you enjoy these, you know, extended conversations like the one we're having here with Caesar. Join us to get the full thing on Patreon, patreon.com slash Divergent States keeps the show community powered and independent. let's get back to that. Right. You need to get in there and support us now. Yeah, I'm gonna spill some beans. I'm gonna spill some beans on CNN and in the patreon edition So you gotta you gotta definitely if you want to know what really went on So I was there. I was there during all of it Right? When the shit went down, I was there. 25 years. Yeah, we'll definitely spill some beans. We'll have some fun. Yeah. We won't name any names. We won't tell where the bodies are buried, but we'll definitely get a giggle or a chuckle here or there about how things go on. Right. Here we go. you know, you're going on kind of where you were talking before. You work a lot of people with a lot of people in the red life. What patterns do you see out of them that people are seeking? Um, it's, um, I came to this realization a little bit after 50. a lot of people come to this realization after 50. At 50, you realize that there's 50 years back that way. There's most likely not 50 in the front. Right. And that's, that's a total possibility. So, because even at 40, my mom's 84, right? So I have 40 odd, man, good exercise, good diet. I can make 80, but at 50. It's you're you realize that you have to ride is already done. So what's left? Is there two left? Is there 12 left? Is there 22 left? Look at Gary. There was only five left. And I'm sure Gary dreamed of 55 left. Right. So we really don't know. So a lot of people over 50, you get that sense it is it over? Is it almost over? Is that is that what's going on? And what I tell them is no, it's just starting. Like every day is a new day. Every day is the best day of your life because you don't know how many you have left. Because you have to enjoy them. Because if there's something that I love is it Gary till the last moment? The last thing Gary did was wake up early, go to the beach, get a rigorous workout how he loved, went and got some waves on the San Diego shore and unfortunately didn't make it to his car, but he lived doing what he loved. He lived like today was... not the last day of his life, but the best day of his life. And if we live that way, and we get that sense because we start to worry, are we going be okay? Are my kids okay? Is my wife okay? And we don't take a deep breath and go, oh, wait a minute, hold on a second. I have everything I need, right? I'm okay. I don't have other tribes trying to take my property. I don't have animals chasing me down. There's clothes in the closet. There's food in the refrigerator. I have everything I need. But once you get 50, it's sort of... So if I can teach people, look, through microdosing, then you can have a little bit more clarity, then you can have a little bit more sense of like, okay, calmness, because that's where it is, the present moment. Like, I can't see behind me in yesterday. And tomorrow's so far away. For me, tomorrow's so far away that if I'm not looking right now at the present moment, I'm gonna miss out on something and I don't want to. I really, I really don't. it's, it's, it's that sense that, and it's a real common denominator in that people over 50. It's almost over. No, it's not. No, it's not. A ride's just starting if you want it to start. Right. your best days ahead of you. Yeah, yeah, all of them because they're ahead of you. And yeah, there might be just five, but they're the best ones because maybe there's 50. I don't know. So it's a mindset. It's really shifting that mindset over 50 that it's not close to being over. It's just really starting. It's just now you have more wisdom, you have more clarity, your kids are starting to grow up, they're starting to do their own thing. this is a good time to maybe reinvent yourself or figure other little things out. So it's that. me, it's that. It's helping people, my generation, hopefully having them wake up a little bit by, again, poking at their childhood curiosity about psychedelics, whether it's a microdose or whether it's, hey, can a Bufo experience really blow my mind to the point where it's like, I'm God? No, I move forward in this empathy filled with love and... compassion like a real God. So yeah. Yeah, do you find any like special integration needs coming from the older community? Mmm. That's a great question. And what I have people do, because it's a sense of presence and connection, for me, the most powerful tool of integration is one, being present. You have to be present. If the medicine has always taught me something, is that everything happens right now. Nothing happens yesterday, and nothing's gonna happen tomorrow. It's all gonna happen right now. So when you have that, when you have that presence of mind, And the other one is connection. Connection to other people. Right? Mushrooms don't live by themselves. A mushroom could never exist if it just grew up in a field by itself and then had no one to connect with their mycelia and never would die. It wouldn't even flourish. It wouldn't even bud. So what type of connections are you making? So for me, that integration, and because of mushrooms, mushrooms are my medicine. They're my friends. They're the ones that open the door for me. They're the ones that really connect me to these other people. uh My biggest integration in what I tell people is connection and presence. And the biggest tool for me, for people to do, is connect to the people who are close to you. So in my case, I have three kids, right? My oldest son's birthday is November 8th. So at 11.08 in the morning, I'm present, because I'm present for him, and I connect with him by sending him a text every day. A text or little emoji or how are you doing? The same thing with my middle child. the same thing with my youngest child. Over 50, those connections are important. And whether that text is to your mom on the date of her birthday, whether it's to your partner on the day of her birthday, whether it's your business partner on the anniversary of when you guys broke, you know, slab on your building, those connections, right, that present moment of right now, I can do this right now, that's where integration really, for me, And again, I always talk from experience because my integration might not work for someone else the same way that my dosage might not work for someone else or my protocol might not work for someone else, right? But me giving people that tool of that presence of mind because life isn't that bad because I'm connecting to my friend or life is not bad because I'm connecting to my wife or life isn't that bad because I'm connecting to my kids and I'm being present for them. man, that takes such a weight off of your chest that you can live that present and connect, that you live like a true mushroom. That's when the mushroom really flourishes, no? That's when it comes out and all the colors come out and the spores come out, when it's connecting, when it's present. So for me, that's the biggest tool for integration. If you can implement that and that goes through, hey, you know what? meditation and I love how people tell me I don't have time to, are you serious? I don't have time to meditate. Have you seen my schedule? Have you seen my Google Calendar? What it looks like? And I'm like, guy, there's literally 1,440 minutes in the day. If you don't have 10 minutes to sit outside, shut your brain up and just listen to the birds or listen to the cars or listen to the airplanes or just be present, then take your Google Calendar, blow it up. and start from scratch and start with just those 10 minutes because it's going to change your life. So I guarantee you spent 10 minutes on your phone. Oh, some point Facebook reels, tick tock, something like just take that time and don't do that and meditate instead. I say that as if I do that. Like I'm not going to get high and mighty, but, but you're present. I got to tell people, you don't have to be perfect. Like you don't have to meditate every day for 10 minutes, but you gotta be consistent. It's gotta be a practice. It's gotta be part of what you're doing. And when you do that, then that's when you get the benefits, right? And look, um I'm as guilty as anyone of this, but I've also set apart those 10 minutes, or at least those 10 minutes aren't this, right? And I have that presence of mine to say that I've scheduled that. That's part of me. Hey, family, everyone, during those 10 minutes, I'm not available for anybody, nobody, because I gotta be presence of mind, and I gotta integrate. what's happening in my life so that I can be the best version of myself. And I can't with all the distractions that are in my brain. So just give me these 10 minutes. going to say when I usually when I consider meditation, it's not like sitting in the traditional pose just, you know, in candles sitting in my head. Yeah, no, for me, it's like, I used to love it when I was on my motorcycle to just be fully present in that moment. Sometimes when I'm doing something that I can be just fully immersed in that moment and keep my attention on that, that's to me what I find to be meditating or meditation. So it doesn't look the same for all the people, just as you were kind of talking, not everybody's integration technique or not everybody's dosing technique is always going to be the same. Mm-hmm. I think the parallels there are the fact that you get into that flow state on the motorcycle where nothing else matters. The bills that have to be paid tomorrow don't matter. The guy that ran you oh almost off the road earlier doesn't matter. Nothing matters with that present moment and what's going on in that flow state. So yeah, that's total meditation, right? It's a sense of just quieting the mind, just quieting the brain down oh to not the present moment. Yeah, just being fully present in the moment you're in and enjoying that. To me, yeah, that's really how I seem to get um my meditation when I do it. kind of going back to what we talking about, what do you see uh any difference with microdosing for healing versus optimization? It comes from intention. comes from intention and I'm going to, know, one of the parallels that I love um to share um and the difference of healing and optimization. When I first tried to microdose LSD, um you know, I got a tab which is typically 100 micrograms of LSD and trying to get a tenth of it was complicated. uh And the intention was that I wanted to be able to focus, right? I wanted to optimize what I was doing and sort of optimize the concentration and be really focused. And I gave up for a bit until I was able to find something that was exactly 10 UGs, 10 micrograms, and I started to microdose that. And my wife says to me, she goes, I know when you're microdosing psilocybin and I know when you're microdosing LSD. I go, how can you tell? She says, when you microdose psilocybin, There's this sense of uh joy, of almost healing. Like you said, you go downstairs, you work out, you come upstairs, you have a coffee, you sit with me, we share space. You go outside, you get some sun, you get healing from the earth. You go back downstairs, you work. She's like, when you're microdosing LSD, like you're optimizing to such point that you don't even come up for air. I literally have to look down there in your office and go, dude, is he alive? Is he even down there? Like what's going on? He hasn't come up. So for me, with intentions, right? And my LSD protocols have always been, you know, there's a project that I really need to focus on the next four weeks, five weeks. um The book, you know, the ebook that's up on microdosingover50.com, you know, that book all came through an intentional optimization use of LSD. So that's really important. But in the macro dosing um aspect of it, that's something that I'm really looking at and hoping to be able to offer experiences for people that are looking for that. I'm talking about those high level individuals, those CEOs, CFOs, COOs, who when you tell them, do you want to use psychedelics for healing? They're like, healing? Dude, have you seen my house? I'm seeing that I got two Mercedes and a Ferrari, about three Rolexes on, you think I need to heal? What do you think I need to heal from? But if you say to him, hey, would you want to optimize your life? Then they start to perk up. Then they're like, wait a minute, hold on a second. What are you talking about? So I love that you made that distinction between the two because you're both incredibly important. Whether it's in the microdosing situation like I've done with the LSD and with the psilocybin. or whether it's in that macrodosing retreat type experience where you can bring in individuals and really use these molecules to say, okay, what's behind door number three and door number five that you haven't opened in years that might be holding you back? How can we get there to optimize and use examples like Steve Jobs and use examples like Sam Altman and use examples like the founder of Whole Foods. who've all openly talked about their psychedelic experiences and how those helped shaped where they took the vision of what they had. So it's important that we talk about both, right? Because yes, psychedelics for healing, for sure, definitely, 100%. I have a kid who's in the army. I have a kid who wears that uniform. I know that once he takes it off, most likely psychedelics could help him for healing, maybe not for optimization, right? Where I know that that optimization uh aspect of these molecules is really also important for, again, those high level individuals, those people who really want to forge forward and make a huge difference but are maybe stuck. That's a good point. Do you want a quick tip on how to microdose that now? I learned this a long time ago. None of this is medical advice. Do it at your own risk. But have one hit. Get 100 milliliters of water. Put the hit in the 100 milliliters. Divide that up into 10 milliliters a piece. And then make 100 milliliters out of those 10 milliliters. You've got 10 microdoses. Yeah, that's one. Again, it's a great way to be able to dose yourself because that's important. Because my experience with a tab, it was funny because the first day I was like, OK, that's about a 10th. Oh, yeah. Yeah. OK, wait. Yeah. Things are a little bit clear now. The second day. Oh, I think that's a 10th. Half hour later. Oh. I'm not it. I'm feeling it anywhere. I've much to do today. There's so much. can't. fortunately, there's a couple of companies out there. I happen to be affiliated with one of them. They offer up perfectly dosed 10-microgram gel tabs, which is beautiful. And they also have 25 micrograms. They also have 100 micrograms gel tabs. So, there's different ways, right? There's different ways. I think that definitely what you were talking about um is a real smart way, but that does take time, right? That sort of does take... When there's someone who... When you have a lawyer who's like, I've heard that microdosing of LSD, I might be a little bit sharper, I might catch some things. And then you say, yeah, so you're have to take a blotter and then you're have to it and you have to put it in 100 milliliters. Then you have to take it, then you have to spread it, and then you have to drop it. They're going to be like, what are you talking about? Can't I just get a pill? Can't I just get something? So it's again, it's meeting people where we are. But I love like I love the old school. Like I love that you had Leonard Picard on because that's where all of this was born. Right. That's where all of this was just envisioned. And that's where we have to respect that and we have to honor that. And we have to, you know, be grateful to that. But we also have to be realistic that we're in modern that we're in modern times. Right. and that things are synthesized and that things are easier and that things, you know, there's different ways to be able to do what might've taken before, you know, some, what Leonard had to do, which now they can just do it in a corner store, you know what mean? That's got a kitchen, that's got access to LSD 25, and then they're making gummies or capsules or whatever. So it's definitely a different world. Right. It really is. it's really that it really opened my eyes in Denver. Psychedelic science this year is just, yeah, how many companies are out there? Just it's out in the open now. Nobody cares. Yeah, I had a discussion with someone with an owner once who said, Cesar, I'm to be honest with you. I don't think we're that important. I think the government is chasing a whole bunch of other things. They're not worried about some, know, corner shop in Arizona that's, you know, got a little factory and is creating some gummies. They don't. Yeah, that's very true too, especially at this point. And, again, that to say, I'm not saying go out and do stuff like this is still illegal. This is still illegal. And look, all these conversations that I have, it's by prefacing that we're not, none of us are recommending or none of us are advocating that anyone does anything illegal, right? Know what your laws are, right? But also just educate yourself, educate yourself. I'm going to take a timeout. I got to plug in the computer. before the computer dies and then we all go crazy. So just we're gonna time out for a sec, yeah? Yeah, no, I'm gonna we're gonna wrap the public part of the conversation right here for the full uncut video plus an extended segment with Caesar It's available on patreon.com slash Divergent States If you want to learn about psychedelic peer support check out the Zendo project and use our code divergent s10 Then ah we'll take one more music break and then Bryan and I will be back with a quick outro you you Yeah you All right, welcome back. That was our conversation with Cesar Marin. Bryan, what stood out to you most about what he said? Man, his passion. His passion for what he does. just, like the whole time I was thinking about it because I'm kind of going through a transition myself. Like people out there, don't know, like I'm moving careers and the career that I'm moving into is like, you really got to pull your own weight if you want to, you know, survive in that. It's a little nerve wracking, but there's like that fear behind it. It pushes you, right? It actually motivates you to work harder when you don't have that. support system behind you that like a normal nine to five has. listening to him talk about getting laid off at CNN and getting into creating not only a clothing line, a podcast and all the things that he does and the way that he goes out, like basically his life has become a mission. And I'm, you know, I, that really stood out to me. That was something that's always inspired me in my life. And this is the first time I'm kind of taking a step like that. And, know, same with you and you started this podcast and you came to me and wanted to make this. all of this is the same thing. It's passion that's driving these things forward. And it almost makes me wonder if that's really what real awakening is. Right is coming into that mission and then finding that drive. I get what you're saying man, just his passion for what he does, like, man, it stood out. Yeah, no, I really, I get that too. Like he, uh the way he talks about it being the mission, know, like it's not just, hey, we're going to talk to people or, you know, we're talking to people about serious stuff here. We're not just, you know, it's just not a flipping conversation. We're, you know, diving in and that's the beauty of it, you know? So, yeah, I think it's, I think he's got some great, I mean, like, And there's no other real uh platform out there talking about microdosing over 50. very No, I mean, I love because he has such a specific market. And I bet people that follow that, like that. mean, I don't, I don't think you and I never really thought about like who our specific market is like, or just like people that like psychedelics, you know, at any age, it really matter. But to take that specific focus, I mean, because he made a great, really great point about that is like when you're 50, you don't know how much longer you've got. And, but when you're 40, you can still kind of like, you can be like, Oh, I definitely make it to 80. Like, yeah. you know, the president visits people that are like 102. Right. Well, yeah, he really, you know, like talking about the integration challenges sometimes, especially a lot of older people over 50, you know, they've got their own, you know, special unique needs. And I mean, we're not too far away, but, you know, we're all going to need that too one day. Absolutely. um I think one more thing that I thought really stood out that I wanted to mention was something that you actually said that he picked up on, which was, I'm trying to remember exactly how you said it, but it was like uh medicinal or healing versus optimization. And when he pointed out that the way you talk to who's in front of you dictates whether you should lean more into the healing side, because I think when we all get Like we all have that piece of it where there's a part where we like how it optimizes things and we like the part that heals. But depending on who you're talking to, if you're talking to someone that's focused on business, numbers, success, profit, stuff like that, staying focused on the optimization benefits, supposed to, you, that you're listening to this person when you do that, you're listening to them and you're not going to try to force them into this idea that it's about healing. You can focus on what it is about that. that benefits them, which is like, mean, they talk about things like that and how to win friends and influence people and just probably any sales book that you can think of. But then when you have the other folks that are healing based, you can have a different conversation with them, but both can be just as passionate. And it's really just thinking about the person right in front of you. And I think that was like hands down, if there's anything I took away that's gonna improve my conversations with people, especially around psychedelics, it was that little nugget of information. Yeah, that's a good one, too. He had a lot of good stuff. I mean, we made out on this one. We got the 20 % off Divergence Aids. You guys want to check out his apparel over Cultivating Wisdom. That's right. Yeah, 20 % off. What he say? was DS20, I think, or something like that. Well, if we're it. We will go back and get it. We'll have it in the show notes. We'll get it posted on everywhere that you can see. ah And if you guys want the extra 25 % off, join the Patreon. You can get some of the cool stuff there. right. All right. Thank you guys all for tuning in. If you want the full extended conversation, it's up on Patreon. Season 2 is off to a real strong start. We'll see you next episode.