William Leonard Pickard - The Acid King, the Rose, and the Return

What happens when the most hunted man in psychedelic history walks free and joins us for a conversation?

In this deeply reflective episode of Divergent States, I sit down with William Leonard Pickard: chemist, philosopher, author of The Rose of Paracelsus, and the man once called the “Acid King.” After decades behind bars, Pickard returns with revelations about time, memory, suffering, redemption, and the spiritual cost of psychedelic pursuit.

We discuss the rise and fall of the most infamous LSD lab in history, Pickard's views on Ibogaine and modern psychedelic commercialization, and how prison reshaped his consciousness. He speaks of literature, inner stillness, shadow organizations, and the unfathomable lessons buried in the folds of silence.

A mythic guest, a poetic mind, and perhaps the most important voice in the psychedelic space today.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

• The "Acid King" Speaks: For the first time in-depth post-release, Leonard Pickard reflects on his time at the center of what authorities called the largest LSD operation in history, and what he believes was really happening behind the scenes.
• Prison as a Psychedelic Experience: Pickard describes incarceration not as a void, but as a radically altered state, where time dilates, silence becomes sacred, and the mind either breaks or transcends.
• Ibogaine, Compassion, and the Future: He voices strong views on the therapeutic use of Ibogaine, its dangers when misused, and its misunderstood spiritual potential.
• The Rose of Paracelsus as Code: More than a memoir, Pickard hints that The Rose is layered with veiled truths and archetypes meant for those “with ears to hear”, especially those seeking refuge from commercialized psychedelia.
• The Invisible Networks: He suggests there are forces: academic, clandestine, spiritual, that have shaped and continue to shape psychedelic culture in ways the mainstream never sees.
• Redemption Through Stillness: Pickard doesn't romanticize his past. Instead, he presents a philosophy of quiet redemption, where introspection, myth, and suffering converge into what he calls “the sacred cost.”
• Warnings to the Psychedelic Industry: He offers a cautionary tale to today’s entrepreneurs and enthusiasts: be wary of glamorizing chemical mysticism, and remember that true wisdom comes not from flash, but from depth.

00:00 – Introduction: The Acid King Returns

3:06 – From Secrecy to Spotlight

06:00 – Psychedelic Culture: Then and Now

10:53 – Ibogaine and Healing Work

12:44 – On Commercialization and Ceremony

16:46 – What About the Sacred?

19:46 – Medicalization vs. Freedom

24:53 – What They Never Ask

26:22 – Second Life Reflections

33:16 – What Prison Taught Me

38:15 – Ergot Wine and LSD Myths

43:01 – Machine Elves and Other Planes

44:13 – Star Trek and the Pickard Rumor

45:07 – Outro and Patreon Preview

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Transcript

0:17

What happens in the world's most hunted man in psychedelic history walks free and decides to speak with us. Welcome back to Divergent States, the unofficial podcast of r/Psychonaut. I'm Elite. Today's guest is William Leonard Pickard, chemist, philosopher, author of The Rose of Paracelsus, and a man who was once called the acid king. With me as always, my cohost Brian, Marine Corps vet, mental health advocate, and the guy who keeps this show tethered to the ground when I start chasing ghosts and the mists Brian, you ready for this one? hell yeah, dude. Yeah. I mean, in the nineties, he was at the center of what authorities claimed was the largest LSD operation in the world. He was sentenced to two life sentences. Now he's out and he's speaking to us candidly about what it all really meant. we talk about everything from the myth of air got wide, the commercialization of mysticism, Ibogaine therapy, ISO LSD, and what it's like to be handed a second life at nearly 80 years old. So on a scale of shamanic reverence and the Fillmore dance floor, where do you land when it comes to psychedelics? I'm going to go with the shaman. The shamanic? Yeah, I'm a shaman. Yeah, a shaman. So yeah, sometimes I think that the corporate CEO is doing sound baths before earnings calls, the timeline we deserve. It's crazy that that's like, What a stark difference. eh It's crazy how much, how far it's come and how, know, in the conversation, I think that was one of the biggest things that really it was kind of, you know, he, was underground for so many years and now he comes out and it's all press releases and press conferences as well. Yeah. So yeah, you guys, if something in this conversation hits you, share it, screenshot it, post it, tag us, tag a friend. And that's how these stories are spread. No algorithm, no ads, just you and our people. We're on every platform @DivergentStates. Hit follow, hit repost, send it to one friend who thinks they know their psychedelic history. Drop us a comment. So let's get into it. This is William Leonard Pickard, like you've never heard him before. hell yeah, dude. Let's do it. All right, with me back today is Leonard Pickard. Thank you, sir, for being here. It's an honor to have you. thank you. Good to meet you, Yeah. So just to kind of open things up, know, you once operated in secrecy and discipline and silence and now everything is podcasts and panels and press releases. What do you make of this shift of visibility? Well, it's difficult for me having lived a life of admittedly clandestine, quite clandestine and high security every minute of every day and suddenly being in public assemblies and speaking of materials which are highly secret, quite a structured secret society for most of my life. So it's an unusual balancing act. Only recently have I been out from under supervision by the government. so during that time, of course, I could not address these legally. But let's see what we can do today. yeah. and and William Leonard Pickard. So kind of like, I was kind of wondering a little bit starting out, what was the psychedelic landscape in the 80s and 90s from your vantage point and how it's, you know, how it's, you've seen it evolve. Well, 80s and 90s were very similar to the 60s and 70s in terms of the landscape. was difficult to even say the word psychedelic in an academic setting. One would consider it laughable, fringe, not worthy of consideration. And one would certainly not achieve tenure. That situation lasted for, oh goodness, more than 40 years. was a complete suppression of a whole area of legitimate human research that in the early days before legalization seemed to be very promising. So all was shut down for most of my life. It's quite extraordinary in the last five years, primarily due to the great work of Roland Griffiths and his colleagues at Hopkins, to a large extent by Rick Doblin with the non-psychedelic MDMA, to opening federal and state doors and stirring academic interest in this field. It's an entirely whole new world. as is evidenced by the recent gathering at MAPS Denver 2025. Thousands of people congregated, many friends, kind of a hug fest. Many of the survivors of the 60s and 70s, although the numbers are dwindling, there are only a few that remember. the reality of the hate ashberry in the 60s and the societal transformations that occurred during those years. Yeah, what ways have you seen the space become more mature? um more mature, vastly more mature as we as very young people in those days and early twenties have become more mature, even elders, those of us that remain. But I see it becoming more mature not only in terms of chronology, simply human aging, but more mature in the sense of the wide variety of research efforts, both corporate, and academic that are now free in most governments of the world to be advanced. There were 300 clinical trials with the name psychedelic in them worldwide, whereas for the last few years, they were zero. That's quite a phenomenon, quite a change. It's a whole mysterious and dark world, potential medicine. that was forcibly constricted. And now the gates are open. So whatever is the truth about psychedelics, their uses, their religious, medicinal, subjectively beneficial properties, if these things are real and if they have these potential... enough. matter if affects or not, we're going to find out the truth in the next several years. Most of us feel intuitively they have broad medical applications and certainly spiritual applications. But belief is not a clinical trial. So I'm very curious about the outcomes, for example, of not only of mind meds, MM120, which is basically just LSD, Tartrate for generalized anxiety disorder, but also the great work done by Beckley, Beckley Sytec, by Cosmo Fielding, Rocky Fielding, sons of the recently deceased and beloved Amanda Fielding. It's a... kind of the Wild West presently with all the corporate entities entering the space and making claims for the application of every known psychedelic to every known psychiatric malady, even marital problems and obesity and postpartum depression. Of course, all psychedelics are not applicable to all medical issues. Some may be useful for some things, psilocybin is a good example for depression. But certainly not a panacea for all man's ills. So it's a great sorting out of the next few years who will burn through their initial funds, who will survive. It's been a winter since 2023 in terms of commercial investment, corporations and what have you. even as unusual things proliferated only underground. As a young man, we only saw LSD as the principal psychoactive component. Now, of course, the community is split into various tribes, ranging from Ibogaine to Phymethoxy DMT. dare I say it to salvin or an a really truly exotic strange a little compound that lasts about 15 minutes. So each has their adherence and proselytizers. I think the underlying, in many cases the underlying subjective effects share a similar spirit. I think there's possibly great benefit involving a very short-term acting 5-methoxy DMT, Bufo, the Toad, the synthetic version of course. LSD, the parent compound, although not discussed as much as psilocybin, still retains enormous promise for alcoholism and general insight. Ibogaine, of course, is full of rich anecdotal material, extraordinary anecdotal material beyond anything I've ever seen, regards any other drug. In terms of its promise for healing of addiction, And more broadly, not simply fentanyl addicts or meth addicts, but the healing of trauma in general, not just drug induced trauma, but physical trauma, psychic trauma, childhood trauma, women's issues. It's not a recreational compound, you don't go dancing on it, although in small doses people do in Ghana and West Africa. But an extraordinary material that seems to access the deepest portions of our emotional history. Yeah, I find diabrogating fascinating myself. I've talked to, I talked to Tom Fiegel a lot about it in his clinic down in Mexico. was really enlightening. It was cool to hear about how he's doing it. Well, I've had the pleasure of actually visiting Ken Kuhn last month and visited with Tom and Talia and actually just spoke with Talia this morning. And I have had the privilege of interviewing all of the CEOs of the principal clinics in Mexico. And. Portugal and Brazil. And among the clinics, although of course the great work by Martín, Alonco, Admission Within, and by Jonathan Dickinson in Tijuana, by Ambio Bio are very excellent with regards to healing of our war fighters. For the broader public and for the quality of the onboarding procedures and the cardio assays, the work done by Beyond is exceptional. I have to ascribe their facility and the treatment protocols as among the best, if not the best. Fortunately, there are many players in the space and the ones with few exceptions. the CEOs I've talked to in the Mexican clinics in Brazil, Portugal. have great heart about this, all of them. They feel that's a drug of some miraculous properties. It is a true healing gift. And they may be right. But again, we need clinical trials to separate the enthusiasm from the reality. And perhaps there is no separation, which would be quite wonderful. Just kind of along those lines, do you think that the current wave of psychedelic advocates really understand the gravity of what they're handling? That's a tough question, one I've never been asked before. We of course are seeing mainstreaming where lots of people are coming in, lots of new names. You see the enthusiasm that's kind of ascribed to... Christianity in a way and the early Christians shouted from the rooftops. People become very enthusiastic. So one has to be careful about newbie bias, if you will. Ahem. Things settle down after a number of psychedelic experiences. Six months or a year or so later, one gains a greater perspective, perhaps becomes more moderated in one's view. I see a number of opportunists entering the field. and I worry about the monetization protocols of it all. realize people have to make a living and all that. I'm happy to see about the ceremonial use. think that's probably a great thing. When we had to hide, which is the last 50 years, ceremonial use, if it existed at all, was of course very quiet. You didn't want a police raid. Now Ceremony News is becoming far more public and it's on the net and retreats popping up all over the world and single individuals administering five hydroxy to every couple of hours to a new individual all over the world in small groups. psilocybin therapist, often self-reclaimed hosting ceremonies. I think that it's good that it's proliferating. It's good that the therapists are by and large good-hearted and experienced in treating their patients carefully. But it is an interesting phenomenon to see the shift from, in the old days, if you wanted to turn a person on, here's a bag of mushrooms. Go and may it treat you well. Walk into the forest. And off they would go with a friend or someone experienced and do that sort of thing. Now it's, if you want this substance, then we will administer to you and we're going to have a sound bath and a lecture about the properties of it. And you're going to lie upon the floor, possibly close your eyes with mask and so forth, with all sorts of music. And it's going to be a very pleasant afternoon. And from that one may gain insight and it may be very helpful. So the structure surrounding the administration of these materials has changed radically, from the most part, think, for the good. Because of the intentional use, we're going to go into this extraordinary experience and fix something. We want to learn something about the reasons for our smoking. We want to learn something about the difficulties in our human relationships. That's far better than simply say, let's pop a pill and go dance down the Fillmore. But then again... There's a sense of freedom in letting the individual discuss or describe or to explore on their own without any guidance, without any instruction, without any control, without any substantial fee for the entire ceremony. Just trust in the innate properties of the material and trust into the friendship circles of experienced individuals that can walk with the individual in the forest. Now was going to say, you see a danger in separating psychedelics from the mysticism entirely? separating from the mysticism. I'm not sure if it can be separated from mysticism. One of my favorite memories is a young person at a great corporate conference where the major psychedelic organizations were raising hundreds of millions of dollars and it was all VCs in their suits. And a young person, a young girl just quietly asked me, what about the sacred? It occurred to me that perhaps that sort of thing has been lost as the accountants look at the bottom line as they must. It's easy, and circling back to your original question, it's easy to forget the fundamental power and spirituality inherent in these compounds, blows away. Hmm all the materialist approaches to it, I realize that the great corporations and their syntheses in China, their requirement to adhere to FDA standards and good manufacturing practices and hire chief scientific officers and All of that require a financial structuring that's quite standard in the pharmaceutical industry with the novelty of the properties of these compounds thrown in. But I often wonder, and you hit the nail on the head in your earlier question, I often wonder if the CEOs or the leaders in treating this like a novel pharmaceutical. have somewhat missed the essential point and have no experience with it themselves and can talk the talk and recite papers, but they may lack. A sense of reverence. because they've never been there. No worries. The good news is the major groups, Attai, Accomplice, what have you, initially were formed by affluent 30, 40, 50-ish individuals that had been there and knew what was up and had that sense of respect. So we haven't seen these founders replaced entirely by CEOs out of Wharton that never have and never will because they're afraid of it. I'll take a class one psychedelic. That's a good news. Yes, I kind of along the same lines as do you think the language around psychedelics has become too safe and sanitized? Well, I think part of the mainstreaming and I think part of the certainly the federal government approval, the lion items in the defense bill allocating tens of millions of dollars to these studies, I think that was necessary to de-wild, if you will, psychedelics, bring them from excited West Coast dancing in the moonlight scenarios and into a more rigid scientific and medical framework where, you know, awkward and unfortunate effects are sometimes seen when people are improperly vetted to admit that. to temper the enthusiasm about the promise to try to produce a more balanced, scientific, staid, rigorous approach. But. You're only talking about a medical treatment for say depression. You're not talking about what happens to a normal individual who is not sick emotionally and takes this material just to go exploring, has no intention to cure themselves of anything, has no intention to resolve neurosis, is not depressed. What about that person, which is most people? What about the 99 %? Is that okay? Does one have to be sick to take a psychedelic now? I realize that we've created a medical and corporate framework to appease FDA and government entities, where yes, you can take this material if you present with a treatment-resistant depression. If you're just a normal human who wants to walk in the moonlight or by the ocean with a friend or see the glory of the forest then that's not permissible. So I think we've created a dichotomy because of the necessary medicalization protocols where we've the 99%. We've forgotten the freedom, the human freedom to do with our minds and bodies as we wish up to a point. We've gotten the beauty of having the freedom to dance in the moonlight. and that it's okay outside government control and no one can tell you not to do it. Those aren't being addressed. I like it. It's true. Yeah, I think that that's even our culture is kind of moving away from that. Everything's becoming more sanitized and more compartmentalized where in the past we were much more feral, I guess is what I would say. So just kind of shifting gears a little bit. See, do you think... Oh, let's do another one. Let's try... has been mythologized, ever made it harder to be understood. You mean psychedelics? Yeah, I mean, just you as a person in general, it seems in the psychedelic world. I don't know how to respond to that. don't, I may have made a practice since 2000 of never reading anything online or articles or any of anything. So I don't, I don't dig through media or I'm not even aware of it unless someone tells me. That creates a much calmer life. I'm not pushed or pulled by various opinions here and there or often inaccurate reporting. Um, and, oh rather not get into public brawls over positions on this or that. don't, when I comment on LinkedIn or the rare social media, it's usually a statement of praise for a piece of work or a researcher that I admire. I don't get into debating the ethics or the morality or the FDA closure of... the great efforts by MAPS. I try to adhere to the community standards that were set in the 60s, which is we're all in this together. It's a worldwide brotherhood and sisterhood. We've got enough problems with oppressive government with guns and prisons than to start battling against ourselves. And we should be tolerant of each other. We all who have seen the light of a million suns, that's a rare group of people. And so with that in mind, not to nitpick or challenge or put another person down, that sort of thing. We've got a much bigger opposition than just us little hippies. That's very true. So what part of your story do you think that people never really ask, but they should? Well, I tend to talk about it little bit at conferences these days. Generally, the questions I'm asked are all about prison. And I can tell all sorts of war stories of, you know, blood baths and that sort of thing, and the pain of it. But, you know, you can see that sort of thing on YouTube. There's a ton of... prison movies and stories, so you get an idea of what it's like, although the visceral feeling of fear is not present. But no one really asked about, and if I were a young person I'd want to know, no one really asked of what's it like, what's it like being in a laboratory with a hundred million doses? What's it like being alone out there? and responsible for that. What do do? What do you think about in the morning? How do you go through your day? Yeah, that's you can't find on YouTube. There's no movies made about it so far. So that's what I'd want to do. But maybe this podcast is not the time to do it. I'm here as long as you want. So yeah. Kind of along those along these same lines you're talking about. What's a small joy you hold on to now? Like something quiet or ordinary or meaningful? yes, very much so. The small joy, well I mean of course, just the joy of waking up and good health. I'll be 80 in a few months, just waking up in freedom. It's a glorious day and good health with, I often say thanks. to the universal spirit or God or what do you like to call it. Thanks for health and thanks for many friends and thanks for family and the health of the family. Thanks for exciting work, meaningful work, just a profound feeling of gratitude. It just wells up with and overflows from within me. know, it's this little life I've got now these few years before me. Didn't have to happen. It's a second life. I thought I would, and many people did, most people did, thought I would die in prison. I did every day for 20 years. So. It's like being given a second life. mean, like being born again in a Christian sense. And the question is then of course I have to ask myself what to do. What do you do? I don't if you were captive for decades and suddenly are not. You What do you do with that second life? I suppose one might think one might run amok in the pleasures of the world. I'm in LA right now on a visit handling some matters and I walked down Santa Monica Boulevard last night, has changed quite a lot since I saw it last a quarter of a century ago. Just little bar after bar after bar, tiny bars like in Amsterdam, just pounding music, different venues and all sorts of unusual things going on. I thought how easy it would be to, and for many young people probably a routine, how easy it would be to be lost in those many worlds of sensory pleasures. enormous amount of food, amount of sex, constant music, just deeply into all the gifts of the world. But I feel with a second life, I prefer to approach it in a more sober manner. without being dull about it. So the question is, I ask myself is what can I do? What can I personally do, how to conduct oneself in the world? What can I do to repay back this great gift or just for a few years more of the freedom? That's a yeah. Is there any kind of moments of kindness from someone unexpected that stayed with you? You mean from the past? From prison, you mean? I have for any time. yeah, I see it all the time. I mean, see kindness, gestures of kindness throughout the day. Yeah, it is very nice to be kind of, you seem very in the moment, in the presence. I imagine you see it quite often. I see it everywhere I turn, just walking down the street, a glimpse of an individual's face. You know, it doesn't have to be young, pretty person. could be very old, very fat. It could be a destitute person, just people that are quite different from my walk of life. You know? like a tear on a child's face. You know, the world, if you stop to look at it a little bit. Hmm can be very beautiful. with its own tragedies as well. So I'm quite familiar with tragedies. but I shall also see the beauty of it everywhere I go. And it's very humbling. Very humbling. I woke up this morning, I'm in, I stay in various hotels and what have you due to my occupations. And two weeks ago I was at the Oslo Freedom Forum at the Grand Hotel paid for by some billionaire, the most beautiful hotel you've ever seen with lovely parks and the beauty of Oslo and outdoor cafes and what have you. And now as he's here speaking to you, I'm in a dive. motel in Los Angeles and when it was burned out, bombed out sections imaginable, it's extremely cheap. And I walk outside my doors and there's cracked beans and you name it, walking around out there. So I woke up this morning to, you know, some old large destitute person wrapped up in a blanket crashed in front of a down chart and obviously Arby's just sitting on a a bench and that's what I woke up to this morning looking for a hot beverage. But then last night I'm driving into LA to meet with a lovely individual who's the best part of Beverly Hills and there's all sorts of cafes, young beautiful people everywhere. I'm driving along in the car and the doors came on the public radio station. you You don't hear the doors very often on public radio. It was just perfect for LA with all its pictures of the film industry and what have you around. There's more of some singing. So there's lots of changes wherever I go. I wasn't able to travel for, of course, 20 years at gunpoint and then the last four years on satellite. A few months ago, the government let me go finally and gave me a passport. So I have several jobs and it allows me to travel, remote jobs. So I've been speaking abroad. I've been to Iceland twice in the last few months, speaking at psychedelic conferences. Costa Rica twice, speaking at human rights conferences. So a lot of that going on, meet a lot of people and embrace a lot of people and vice versa, never tire of it. It's like a great gift. So. That's, yeah, it's always, I mean, yeah, just kind of reflect back and see how far you've talked throughout and just how far you've come and going from thinking you're gonna die in a cell to, I mean, even like I said, when Santa Monica, something you did, walking down Santa Monica Boulevard, something you probably never thought would happen again. Did anything new emerge in your thinking while you were incarcerated? Something that would have never come from freedom? Well, know, life before prison was extremely fast lane. you're dealing with these planetary scale quantities and then that you have to move about the world and safely and all that and so that lifestyle of hiding remote laboratories is an exotic Quite an exotic lifestyle. So it's very fast, in a way. but in prison, you slow it down. you know, second becomes a thousand years. Time twists and dissipates and is just a vacuum of the heart, a vacuum of hope that goes. As you read, nothingness. But there are teachings that occur that could not be, perhaps not obtained in other ways easily. The vast land's gone. when it's terribly isolated. And I speak of this often in public appearances. that you learn what really means the most. to oneself. And that is not what has taken away. What's taken away is your job, assuming you had a job. All possessions are gone. Many friends are gone, a few new ones are made. For being able to travel to Moscow tomorrow if one wished to. Only being able to walk 40 or 50 feet with permission of a guard through metal detectors and round and round in small circles endlessly. enormous change from being able to do anything to being able to do nothing. A sense of enormous disempowerment. So one learns what is left, what is most meaningful. often talk about this publicly. You And that's merely the love of one's family and friends. And that is sorely, sorely attested by imprisonment. hard for them. But that's all there is when all else is blown away. That's a good lesson in a sense. It's a very human lesson. It reminds oneself that status, money, privilege, education, socioeconomy, cars and homes, all possessions mean nothing. compared to a simple flame in the heart of a loved one. that you can see, still see. through 34 walls. What would you say surprised you the most about yourself during your time away? Endurance. surviving it. People do give up. I would spare that, but I've seen it many men. One thing that helped me personally was studying the law and getting up every day and filing motions and fighting the fight. We're going to file a motion, we're going to turn this case around, we're going to get a new trial. This goes on for years and years and years and years. It went on every day for 20 years. I filed a thousand motions. Just fighting a good fight helps a lot, but if you don't have that, if you don't have that something to hang on to that empowers you somewhat, something to do, get home to your family, you don't have that. I think most men, at least in maximum security where I was, didn't have that. They just sort of say, okay, I'm done. and they watch TV all day long or they get into heroin use. I walk around like zombies. And that's really scary to see happen to a grown man. It's like watching an old lion die in a zoo. Pacing back and forth. You can see it in their eyes. Yeah. So if this wasn't a podcast and we're just kind of two people hanging out over tea, what would you want to say that hasn't been said? Hahaha Well, I'd just like to thank you. Thank you, Leet, for asking some questions. I didn't expect a day to get into the emotional end of it, but it seems to naturally happen. Thank you for allowing me to once again reflect on which way is up.. I hope that your listeners and people that have survived to the spot cast this far find something memorable and helpful to them personally and perhaps our little conversation. Yeah, I mean, that's a great, I mean, yeah, it's, I just, we've also were attached, we've got our Psychonauts. So it's the largest forum in the world dedicated to the responsible use of psychedelics. So we've got over 500,000 members there. So hopefully they'll hear some of this too. Yeah, I've got a few questions from them, if you'd be willing to answer a couple of these. um A good one, let's see, what's his name? Lycegeo Demetrius. I wanted to know, did you ever isolate alkaloids in ergot wine? Urgad wine does not really exist. That is a myth created by the girlfriend of the government witness that did me in. And without naming names, and I don't really want to go there in this discussion. The girlfriend produced a pretty popular small book. about 2012 or so when I could not speak to the case publicly. For me, there was zero comment publicly for the entire 20 years. But said girlfriend hopped into the silence while assisting her boyfriend and the government and published this little book. And Ergot Wine came from the following. This might find this intriguing. I don't really speak of it publicly. Okay. So prior to having me arrested, this individual had access to a stored laboratory which he had stolen and gotten under his control. And within that laboratory were, goodness, several large drums of byproducts from various labs through the years. But he didn't have the, he'd stolen all this and didn't have the instruments to analyze it, but thought it might be valuable. So he assembled the girlfriend and many young people, by that I mean 17, 18, 19 in the Midwest and took some drops out of these large containers and put it into wine. and he befuddled them or misled them saying, this is ergot wine. What it was, of course, was simply a bottle of wine with a few milliliters of a liquid containing the rather wretched byproducts of some synthesis years earlier. no doubt some LSD in it, but also iso-LSD, lysergic acid, acetonitrile, and various other strange things. But he wanted to do this to determine if this large drum was of value and could be distributed. so in my view, the young people were merely guinea pigs. So this was recorded. In the book, the girlfriend wrote a chapter, think named Ergot wine or ALD 52 or something like that. But it's purely a myth. There is no Ergot wine. If there were, it'd be extremely dangerous. It's actually a pretty funny story. Think about it. This whole story, it's just my product. Yeah, I have my own theory on that. I think a lot of the negative effects you get when people say, oh, it was dirty acid or something, a lot of it's the ISO LSD and stuff that wasn't cleaned properly. Well, it's true. The interesting thing about syntheses, and there are any number of small batches being made with an impure product, and crudely, the largest scale people, of course, are different on that. But, Iso-LSD is produced in many chemical approaches, not all of them. And it has no effect really, if you took it alone. When mixed with the actual compound, it seems to flatten out the experience of saying, having hundreds of thoughts simultaneously, you get this very dull psychedelic wash of no distinction. And that's the the presence of a considerable amount of ISO LSD in there. Itself, if you took it by itself, ISO would have no effect, but it does seem to moderate the real stuff. That's great. I feel like we really kind got over his little question on that. So major caps. says, many psychonauts feel they interact with intelligent beings on different planes. Whether we described as spiritual or alien or something else, have you ever had such an experience? And if so, what impact do they have on you? Or what would you suggest people process these types of experiences? Well, yes, I'm interacting with intelligence being on multiple planes as we speak, not only you, but to the person that asked that question. I tend to keep things in the human realm. I prefer to talk to people and all walks of life, children to old ladies to incredibly talented individuals beyond my capacities. But they're all human and they're all here on this planet. I don't speak to machine elves. or spirits with no name or any of the possible phantasmagoria that are created in the neurological cinema from taking this drug or that drug or what have you. think those are curiosities and all that stuff, but I wouldn't waste one's time talking to beings that aren't human. I totally relate on that. It's kind of my personal point of view on it. If you were prison, they weren't human, but that's another subject. Yeah, I try to I tend to describe myself as a naturalist or physicalist. Yeah. So. So last one, the guy's name is Star Lady, Star Trek, Wook Life. uh Star Trek, Wook Life. Yeah, yeah. I said, ask him if there's any truth to the theory that the writer's room of Star Trek The Next Generation was taking his asset and named Captain Pickard after him. The timeline seems to match up, but nobody's ever been able to confirm it as far as I can tell. Well, not to my knowledge. I think there was just coincidence, but I can recall hearing about that in 92, 93 and goodness, game was on in those years and things were all over the place. So it's quite possible that Gene Roddenberry, some of the writers had a real sense of humor. But I think it's merely coincidence, although a fun coincidence. Yeah, I thought it was really interesting question. feel like that would be kind of a cool answer to find out if that could be confirmed or not. Yeah, I think he's a great actor. Me too, yeah. So yeah, stick around. got to thank you for your time. We got a few questions. Maybe we could hang out and talk for just the Patreon section. Yeah, and so William Leonard Pickard, thank you for your voice, your candor, and your time. For those listening, the Rose of Periclesis. Is that correct? m Paracelsus. Okay, I gotta get better with my Greek, And for card like Jean-Luc. yeah. William Leonard Pickard, thank you for your voice, your candor and your time. For those listening, the Rose of Paracelsus. I will be back for the bonus section on Patreon. You guys stick around. We'll be talking a little more, just having fun. William, thanks again for staying a little longer. Thanks again, Leet. Thank you, everyone. you That was William Leonard Pickard, chemist, mystic, survivor, a man whose story forces us to rethink everything we know about this space. If you believe in conversations like this, help us keep it going, follow the show, drop a rating, share this episode with someone who needs to it. So, so you think we'll ever get a Netflix series out of this guy's life? Dude, uh, it's definitely worthy. mean, can you imagine? mean, just. It'd like a psychedelic Breaking Bad. Dude, two life sentences, bro. I want to say it was like two kilograms of LSD. Like they tried to get, it was crazy amounts. Yeah. So, uh, was there anything that, uh, you would have asked for a card that, that I didn't. Hmm. Probably, I guess, um, how to make the best prison wine. That would actually been a pretty good question. wonder how can I make hooch in case I ever find one? That would have been a great one. What is Leonard Pickard's prison wine recipe? Or just like five tips to maintain your emotional center when facing life in prison. That's that. mean, both of them. That would have been a great. Now I feel like it's a lost opportunity. Well, it sounds like we're going to be talking with him more in the future, right? Yeah. Yeah. I've been chatting with him. saw him several times at psychedelic science. Um, got his number. We've been, you know, texting and chatting back and forth, which is freaking surreal to me, but yeah, you know what? It's awesome. right. Cause he's like, he's a big influence for you, right? Oh God. Yeah. I read his story as I told him, I read his story, you know, 25 years ago and just was obsessed with it. um, yeah, it was real exciting to get to sit down. talk to him little bit. you know, everybody, thanks for listening. Remember most people never get a second chance. The real story is what you do with it. If this resonated with you, share this with another supporter or jump into the comments. We're always listening. If you've got guest ideas, just want to say hi, we're @DivergentStates everywhere. Thanks for walking with us through this one and we'll catch you in the next episode. Yeah. Catch you guys later. you you