Kyrsten Sinema on Psychedelics, Policy, and Veterans: Inside the New Bipartisan Movement

In this exclusive interview, former U.S. Senator Kyrsten Sinema joins Divergent States to discuss the future of psychedelic medicine in American healthcare. From Ibogaine and PTSD to policy reform and bipartisan collaboration, Sinema opens up about her firsthand exposure to the healing potential of psychedelics through veterans' experiences - and why the time to act is now.

We explore how veterans are pushing the policy frontier, what FDA and CMS approval would mean, and why even critics of the current political landscape may want to support this shift.

Whether you're skeptical of government or hopeful for reform, this conversation tackles the friction between institutions and innovation—and why psychedelics might be the most disruptive medicine in a generation.

👉 Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and join the conversation

🔑 Key Topics & Takeaways:

• Sinema’s introduction to psychedelics through Ibogaine and a veteran’s recovery story
• The bipartisan support behind psychedelic research and its surprising origins
• Why psychedelic medicine challenges the pharmaceutical business model
• The risks of corporate monopolization and how small biotech firms can resist buyouts
• The path to FDA and CMS approval for Ibogaine, MDMA, and psilocybin
• Why the Trump administration’s staffing of “disruptors” may accelerate reform
• Access, affordability, and insurance coverage: what’s next
• Her vision for psychedelic medicine by 2030

⏱️ Chapters for YouTube or Show Notes:

00:00 – Intro & Why Sinema Sparks Debate
01:20 – Why Interview Politicians on Psychedelics
04:00 – Sinema’s Personal Awakening to Psychedelics
06:30 – Ibogaine, Trauma, and Veterans
08:45 – Colleagues' Reactions to Psychedelic Policy
10:20 – Veterans in Congress Leading the Charge
12:00 – Risks of Big Pharma Infiltration
13:45 – Why Psychedelics Aren’t Big Moneymakers
15:30 – Making Treatments Accessible for All
17:40 – Decriminalization vs. Federal Policy
19:00 – Policy Regrets and Strategic Pragmatism
21:10 – Why She’s Still in the Fight Post-Senate
22:00 – Supporting Psychedelics Despite Politics
23:00 – Rebuilding Trust in Institutions
25:00 – Where the Movement Could Be in 5 Years
26:30 – Sinema’s Panels at Psychedelic Science 2025
28:00 – Collaborating with Heroic Hearts & VETS
30:00 – Outro: Reflections and Community Shout-Outs

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Transcript

3L1T3 (00:15.246)
Today's episode is a little different, not because the topic is unfamiliar. We talk about psychedelics, trauma, healing, policy, but because of who I'm speaking with. Kirsten Sinema is a former US Senator. She's also someone whose name in certain corners of the internet, especially ours, sparks debate, praise, frustration, suspicious curiosity, all of it. So this interview is not about softball questions or takedowns. It's about exploring where politics, power, and psychedelics collide.

So let's go. Welcome back to Divergent States. I'm your host, Elite. What's up, Bryan? How's it been going?

Hey, what's up, All right. doing great. How about you?

Don't.

I know, but it came off a real nice interview. Crazy day when I recorded the interview. So I did Kirsten Sinema. It was a good interview, a lot of fun. But then Leonard Pickard. So he'll be probably coming first of next month. wow. Yeah. So that was a good interview, too. Real great guy. But back to who we're talking about.

3L1T3 (01:22.54)
Yes. Former Senator Kirsten Sinema, Arizona Senator, and, had a good talk. talked to, you know, good portion about, you know, and to be honest, I had a, had some pushback on the subreddit, a lot of, you know, opinions just that maybe we shouldn't even do it. Yeah. And, you know, I, at the end of it all, you know, I decided, I think,

How I said it best was if we're, if we only talk to people who we agree with all the time, then we're not building consensus. We're building a bubble. And so really, you know, we have, it's, it's not about who you're involved politically with. It's really about the healing and you know, who these people are, what the, who can be helped by this. Right. So yeah, I thought, so I think it, I think the interview kind of illustrates that.

Right.

Bryan (02:19.864)
right on.

Yeah. So, yeah. we'll, take a listen to that. this is going to be coming out, hopefully the first day is the, publicly Spotify and everything. Speaking of which, psychedelic science 25, first day of that. and speaking of which we, possibly heard for maybe our first sponsor today, like official sponsor. Really? Yeah.

So, more to come on that, I suppose.

Yeah, we're, uh, I've hopefully been talking to them at psychedelic science 25. They're, um, involved in some studies that, um, around silicide. And then, uh, talking about maybe some sponsorships and I was like, that's, you know, sounds like a good idea. We could probably be able to talk that out. uh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So if you guys, uh, want to keep, uh, don't want to hear the commercials, you can sign up for patreon.com divergent states. Um,

follow us on the social media, but we're going to take a listen to this interview and come back.

Kyrsten (03:25.038)
you

Kyrsten (03:29.048)
Yeah

you

3L1T3 (03:37.527)
you

3L1T3 (03:41.375)
Hey

3L1T3 (03:49.614)
you

3L1T3 (04:01.774)
Welcome back to Divergent States, I'm your host, Elite. Today's episode is a little bit different. Not because of the topics unfamiliar, we still talk about psychedelics, trauma, healing, and policy. But because of who I'm speaking with. Kirsten Sinema is a former US Senator. She's also someone whose name in certain corners of the internet, especially ours, sparks debate, praise, frustration, suspicion, curiosity, all of it. So this interview is not about softball questions or takedowns, it's about exploring

where politics, power, and psychedelics collide. So let's go. Thank you, Senator Sinema, for being here.

I'm happy to be with you, but boy, that was quite an introduction. I don't know what that means for us, but here we go.

Thank you.

Right. Well, you've spoken publicly about trauma and PTSD and about the experience with your bodyguard that opened your eyes to Ibogaine. So we can start there. What was the moment that shifted your mindset on psychedelics from like taboo to fringe to something potentially transformative?

Kyrsten (05:01.198)
Well, it's interesting you say that because I didn't have a taboo perspective beforehand. I just had a lack of knowledge. I just didn't know. So by training, I'm actually a licensed clinical social worker. I was a therapist for children for a number of years before entering politics. obviously I worked with children. Well, it's not obvious, but I'll tell you, I worked with children, many children who had experienced trauma. And I knew nothing about psychedelic medicine. And so of course I entered

politics, I serve in the state legislature, then I serve in the US House, and I serve in the US Senate. Never really knew anything about psychedelic medicine, despite my training as a licensed clinical social worker. And then a member of my team, Matt Amel, who is a retired Green Beret, so he served in the Special Forces. He, one day we were all, there was a group of us all in California doing some work, and he told us that he was going down to Mexico.

to do a psychedelic treatment called Ibogaine. And he went with a group called the Vets Foundation, which you are probably aware of. They provide scholarships for special forces veterans to travel to Mexico and receive Ibogaine treatment. And these guys all bear the classic and the common wounds of war of post-9-11 veterans, traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic stress disorder and treatment resistant depression.

told us he was going down to do this treatment and he'd be gone for a week. And then we saw him right afterwards. He picked me up at the airport in San Diego and we had a drive up to Los Angeles again for work. And during that drive, I said, you know, would you be willing to share your experience with me? Just tell me about it. Cause you could see that something was different, but I wasn't quite sure what. And so Matt started to share, you know, his experience and told us about his journey with Ibogaine And I was,

incredibly intrigued. And again, I knew nothing. I didn't even know what Ibogaine was. And I said, okay, I got to go learn about this. And so I didn't see him for about two weeks. And two weeks later, I showed back up and I was like, well, I went down to Internet rabbit hole. This is what I've learned. And I learned a whole lot about Ibogaine and other psychedelic medicines. And it was really at that time that I decided I wanted to start working on this because it well, as you know, the data about the impact that this has on veterans.

Kyrsten (07:26.638)
from traumatic brain injury to PTSD. But we also know that abogaine has a huge impact on people suffering from Parkinson's because of its neuro regenerative properties. And then of course there's the data of the efficacy of ending addiction, opiate addiction and other addictions. I mean, it's just incredible. And so then I said, well, that's it. We're going to start working on this issue. And we've been working on the issue of abogaine and other psychedelic medicine since then.

That's amazing. What was the response from your colleagues when you started taking this seriously? Was there any pushback or laughter? know, silence?

No, no, my colleagues have been uniformly either supportive or interested. Really what it was, 3L1T3, is that people just didn't know. Like myself, I had no idea. But when you hear about the experience from a person who is suffering from these challenges through no fault of their own and then receives the treatment and then their lives change, I mean, I don't know how you don't respond. And so when I started talking about this with my colleagues, I got...

uniformly positive responses. Which is impressive considering the long history of bias and frankly the government shutting down research in psychedelic medicine back during the Nixon and Leary era. We're in a different time now.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Anything to have just that kind of consensus is really kind of just breathtaking, honestly.

Kyrsten (08:50.519)
It really is amazing.

Right. A lot of folks in our space seem to feel like politicians, as you're talking about, are quick to use veterans and trauma as kind of rhetorical shields, but they're kind of dragged their feet when it comes to real policy. What kind of progress did you see with your time in the Senate, or was it just kind of bureaucracy?

Well, I mean, the government is just a nightmare of bureaucracy. So I want to be clear about that. And that's not disclosing anything when everyone doesn't know. I mean, it is horrible. But there are some incredible leaders who are willing and ready to stand up for this issue. So Colonel Jack Bergman, who's a member of Congress from Michigan, is really was at the tip of the spear on psychedelic medicine in the US House. Jack and I served together. He's a tremendous man. Highest ranked.

military individual to ever serve in the U.S. Congress. Just really incredible. And then Morgan Littrell of Texas. Morgan is serving his third term. Yeah, third term, I believe, from the Eighth District of Texas. Morgan is a retired Navy SEAL. He himself experienced avogaine treatment through the VETS program, just like Matt did. And then, of course, I've had an opportunity to work with other members in the Senate who I've introduced the concept to and who have been very supportive. Senator Tom Tillis is one example.

but he's not alone. Senator Tim Sheehy, who's a new member of the Senate from Montana, he's a retired Navy SEAL, very strongly supportive. And so together, we actually have put language in prior budget years to require the Veterans Administration to do research and provide treatment for psychedelic medicine for veterans. We started with MDMA assisted therapy, which is...

Kyrsten (10:36.288)
It is effective for PTSD. It doesn't have an impact on TBI. It doesn't have as much of an impact on treatment-resistant depression, but it's been very effective on PTSD. And now the VA has expanded into psilocybin research, and they're preparing to expand into research for avogad. And that was really because members of Congress and the Senate were pushing. And so the bureaucracy is a nightmare, but when you've got people who believe in it are committed, you can make some progress.

Yeah, you've worked across party lines kind of famously, but that also means you've worked closely with pharma-aligned lawmakers. Do you see a risk that this emerging psychedelic industry ends up kind of repeating the same patterns that we saw with cannabis reform or worse with like the opioid epidemic?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So let me tell you why I think we're in a better place today than we would be in the past on that very question. And that is the Trump administration. You the Trump administration is supportive of plant-based medicines and psychedelic medicines. You've got RFK Kennedy Jr., who is a strong advocate. He's already hired people on his team who are strong advocates. Matt Zorn, who is his deputy counsel, was, you might remember Matt's name.

He successfully sued the DEA around cannabis growth, actually for a doctor here in Arizona, Sisley, so that you could have effective cannabis research. He's now the Deputy General Counsel at HHS, which is fantastic. But you've got Dr. Marty McCarrey, who's the new commissioner at the FDA. He's already on several podcasts said very positive things about psychedelic research. And as you know, this administration has taken a very different approach with traditional pharma, very different approach.

And so I think the challenge here is to work our way through FDA approval for the class of psychedelic medicines that have shown efficacy with veterans for traumatic brain injury, PTSD, Parkinson's, opiate addiction, depression, et cetera, and then figure out how do we support the tiny companies that are doing this work so that they don't get bought out by a large traditional company. know, one of the kind of...

Kyrsten (12:51.31)
that happens sometimes is a large company might buy a small company and then instead of taking their product to the end of the process, they might just bury it. So we got to make sure that doesn't happen, right? So we need the small companies to be supported so they can get all the way through the FDA process. And that's why we're doing efforts like the one that Matt and I are working on in Arizona and that Governor Rick Perry and Bryan Hubbard are working on in Texas, which is state-based investment in

abogaine research to get FDA approval. So we've got to kind of go outside the traditional process to ensure that we can help these small, this class of very small drugs for which there's not a huge moneymaker at the end to actually get access to FDA and then eventually get approval.

Yeah, that kind of leads me straight to my next question. People fear the bipartisan support just means bipartisan access to the profits. How do we keep this becoming a playground for just biotech and billionaires?

There's not a lot of profit to be made here. Right? I mean, that's one of the reasons I don't think you've seen a lot of psychedelic research pushed forward in the past because psychedelic medicine is both rapid acting, which means it happens, you like you see the impact very quickly and it's short term, which means you only need, you know, one or two or, you know, at the most three to four treatments. Right. So for MDMA assisted therapy, the trials have been no more than four treatments. For psilocybin, it's usually one to two.

for abogating, you're looking at one to two treatments. And so when these medicines are approved by the FDA, they're not going to make oodles of money. It's not like you're taking a psychotropic medication every morning at breakfast for the rest of your life. It's also not like a Zyrtec, like an allergy medicine you take for the rest of your life, or like an acid reflux pill you take for the rest of your life. Psychedelic drugs, by definition, are

Kyrsten (14:50.112)
only used a couple of times. And as you know, they're non addictive. And in fact, some of them like Ibogaine are anti addictive because it's not a pleasant experience. Ibogaine is very serious. so I don't think it's going to be attractive to a mega company because it's not a moneymaker, which means that people who are investing in this right now are doing it because they care about the use product. They want the product to be used.

to make a difference in people's lives.

Yeah, I think a lot of the pushback and what we're seeing is that, hold on. I think a lot of the pushback and the things that we're seeing really, it seems to be that a lot of the treatments today can run four or five figures. And I think the point is that as they become more accepted, hopefully the prices will come down.

The treatments are expensive, but you only have to do it one, two, three times. It's still way less expensive than being on a traditional pharmaceutical for the rest of your life. And in the case of abogaine, for instance, and opiate addiction, you completely stop using all opiates. So it's very, very different, right? Much, much cheaper. So I think people are just looking at the short-term cost.

But the long-term cost is much less expensive, much, much less expensive.

3L1T3 (16:13.58)
Yeah, people, what they'd push back and they gave concern in the subreddit was how are there any measures in place that people are going to, that we can ensure that the, you know, it's not just, you know, even every day just middle-class. mean, how do we make sure even homeless people or, you know, the least of us can get access to these medicines as well.

That's a really important question. So the first step has to be FDA approval. After FDA approval, then you go through a fairly lengthy, difficult process called CMS approval. And that's where you go to, well, now that's Dr. right? Where the Center for Medicaid Services determines approval for this. And then once it's approved for use in Medicaid and Medicare, then you're going to get widespread insurance coverage. And that brings the cost curve way, way down. So again, I mentioned Dr. Oz specifically here because

as we've already seen the Trump administration, particularly in the Health and Human Services Department, which is Bobby Kennedy and Dr. Oz and Dr. McCarrey, they're taking a radically different approach to health than you've seen in past administrations, both Republican and Democrat, and even very different than Trump's first term. And so I think the opportunity for that change is very, very ripe in this administration.

And that's why I think you see so much energy around psychedelic medicine because folks recognize we're in a special place and special time right now. And the opportunity to get this done is right now because you've got folks in positions of power who are unafraid to disrupt the traditional system and who understand the science and believe in the science of psychedelic medicine.

Yeah, the Oregon and Colorado models are unfolding now. It's legal but clunky. Do you think that's a good blueprint for other states?

Kyrsten (18:01.838)
Well, I would probably make a few key differences. One, think either decriminalizing in a state or regulating for medicinal use in a state can help move the narrative forward, like as we saw with cannabis. we're still left without the ability for, like folks in many states still can't get access to medical grade cannabis for pain if they're recovering from cancer or undergoing cancer treatment.

we really do need FDA approval. This needs to be done nationally. when it's done nationally, then everyone in the country can get access to it. And then you go through CMS approval. And that means that folks, both seniors through Medicaid, through Medicare, and individuals who are lower income or have disability through Medicaid can get access to it. And that will allow you to then get it covered through Indian Health Services and the VA services. And that's where you get private insurance. So I think, and this is just

my experience in 20 years in both state and federal government, I believe the best way to do this is through the federal action.

What's the federal responsibility when it comes to equity and decriminalization?

look, they're not going decriminalize. So I don't spend my time thinking about it because that's not going to happen.

3L1T3 (19:18.764)
Yeah. Is there any bill or policy you regret not pushing harder during your time in office, specifically around drug reform?

No, no, because what I did during my 20 years of service, 3L1T3, was to look for the opportunity. What I always did was look for the space in which I could find bipartisan action and then go take as much space as I could. And so it was really kind of an opportunistic perspective. And I say that in a positive way, not a negative way. There are different kinds of people who go to Congress. Some people go to Congress to be TikTok stars and talk about the things that they care about on a camera.

I am not that girl, right? Like, as you know, I did very few interviews. The fact that I'm doing a podcast is a big deal today. It's only because I care so much about this issue. Absolutely. What I did was I was more of a nose to the grindstone kind of girl, like just a workhorse. Look for the opportunity for bipartisan action, aggressively go get in that space, take as much as you can, get as much as you can get done. And so for me, I never spent my time...

you. Right. Thank you again.

Kyrsten (20:24.712)
kind of pushing for something that wasn't going to happen. I spent all my time focused on what could happen and getting as much as I could in that space. And for me, that was the strategy that allowed me to feel the most, not just happiness, but fulfillment and allowed me to be able to say to my constituents that I was actually returning on their investment in me, that they were getting real things, real differences in their lives because of my actions. They weren't getting TikTok videos and they weren't getting hits, you know, on the internet, but they were getting results.

And so, yeah, I have no regrets.

Nice. So do you plan to continue to work in this space?

yes, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I hope not too long because, you know, we're at this really a perfect storm time. We've got an administration that is aligned and wants to see FDA approval and, of course, eventually CMS approval for effective psychedelic medicines. And I think it's our job to strike while the iron's hot, make it easy for the federal government to do this. And that's by collecting sound science and pushing it through the process in a way that supports, as Dr. Makari says over and over, gold standard science.

That's what we've got to do. And yeah, I intend to do that until we get there.

3L1T3 (21:34.092)
Yeah, that's what I was kind of thinking. Even if you don't support the current administration, at least you can support their current goals towards plant-based medicines.

You know, I guess my, the way I talk about this with folks is this, maybe you voted for Trump, maybe you didn't vote for Trump. That's not really important to me. What's important to me is what we can get done. And as you know, that's why I've engaged in my entire career. And as you said in my introduction, it has been controversial for some, right? Cause I've always been independent minded. So I don't spend any time worrying about who voted for who or what, that's just not important to me. What's important to me is what can we do?

And what we know right now is that this administration is bullish on psychedelic and plant-based medicines. So let's do it.

Yeah, I think that's a good point. It's something for everybody to consider.

Yeah. So for your listeners, whether they support Trump or they don't support Trump, that's okay. It doesn't matter. Right? Let's go get this done.

3L1T3 (22:34.348)
Yeah, that's a great point. So there is a lot of political burnout in this space and a lot of people don't trust institutions. What do you think that we could do to help people take a second look at some of these institutions?

look, I think Americans don't trust institutions for good reasons because throughout their life, institutions have failed them. So I get it, right? Like, it makes sense when someone tells me they hate the IRS, I'm like, yeah, man, that's everyone, right? Or if they say they don't, they don't trust, you know, HHS, because they didn't, you know, like the labels on their food. Well, yeah, there were chemicals in the food. But as we see, the maha movement is changing that. So I guess what I would say is, I'm not asking people to have trust in institutions.

What I would suggest is that we collectively try to impact and change these institutions. And one thing that I'll say about the Trump administration, again, whether or not you support them, Trump has chosen a series of disruptors for every single cabinet level position in his government. These are people who come from outside the government who are interested and willing to disrupt the place to make change. And that is highly unusual, right, in the federal government. It tends to be much more of a go along to get along, just kind of the machine keeps moving.

And this disruption, while for some people brings some stress, right, because there's change, it also brings opportunity. And so what I would say is like, focus on the opportunity. There's real opportunity to change these institutions. And I think that you see, especially in the health and human services realm, you see folks that Trump has chosen who are very interested in disrupting and changing those institutions. And so that's an opening. That's an opportunity for the community.

that cares about psychedelic medicine.

3L1T3 (24:21.57)
Yeah, so where do you see the future of the movement going? I'm saved like five years.

Well, five years is after Trump's term ends. So it's my hope that by that time we've gained FDA approval for a number of these life-changing medicines. And I also hope that we've gotten down the road for CMS approval on a number of them. Now that's a big order because in the old days it took 10 years for a drug to get from introduction through the end of the FDA process. But as you may have seen in the last week or two, Dr. McCarrey, the new FDA commissioner,

has basically said that is outdated. can't do that anymore. There's life-saving treatments. And so he wants to change and speed up the process using gold standard science. That's an opportunity for us. And so I think we can get it done within five years.

Yeah, that's a great goal to have. It would be amazing to see that many people that could be healed by these medicines by that point.

Would be incredible. Imagine all the people who living in our country with traumatic brain injury today with virtually no treatment.

3L1T3 (25:23.97)
Yeah, I mean, I've talked with other, you know, other figures before and, know, it's almost universally agreed on trauma is the biggest, you know, un, I guess unhealed thing in this world right now.

It is. And there aren't really any other effective treatments. So this really matters.

Yeah, especially like and how quickly psychedelics can really bring about these changes. And that's what to me is the most amazing. Yeah. And so this space is skeptical by design because it's been burned before, but it's also curious, open-minded, grounded in transformation. I appreciate you stepping into that tension with us today.

Yeah.

Kyrsten (26:04.98)
it's been my pleasure.

Yeah, I really appreciate it. Yeah, we could probably do like a little, looks like we've got a couple more minutes. If you want to do like a little Patreon section, just chat a little bit. I'd love to. All right. Awesome. Well, if you guys want to listen, you can join us, patreon.com, Divergent States. We'll be back. And so yeah, yeah, it's been, it's really cool. What are you looking forward to at Psychedelic Science 2025?

Sure.

Kyrsten (26:34.814)
so I'm excited for the heroic hearts panel. I'm gonna be on the panel with two of my colleagues and friends. I mentioned them earlier on the podcast, Morgan Luttrell, who represents Texas's eighth district and Colonel Jack Bergman, who's just a dear, dear friend. And the three of us will talk a little bit about, know, psychedelic medicine and veterans. We'll talk about, I think probably the VA's research. I'll talk about.

the research I'm doing now outside of government or the work I'm doing outside of government to try and push forward ABBAGAME. I'm really excited about that conference. It's going to be exciting. And then on Thursday, I'm actually doing a panel on the main stage, a keynote panel with Dr. Sue Sisley. I mentioned her earlier in the podcast as well. She's a pioneer in cannabis research and has the only schedule one DEA license in the country for natural psilocybin research, for FDA research.

She's just phenomenal. And the two of us are going to talk about abogaine research. And I'm pretty excited about that.

Yeah, that sounds really cool. was what Sasha Shulgin had it just was the only one for a long time had that same kind of designation. I'm really excited about the kind of that was the deep space the Ardux suspicion they've got going on. Yeah, it's gonna be really cool. Yeah, I Amber Capone and her husband are going to be there for doing more with the vets. Have you guys worked with them at all much?

Yeah, we work really closely with Amber and Marcus. They're phenomenal. That's actually how Matt was able to experience Ibogaine is through a vet scholarship. And the same Morgan as well. And so we actually work really closely with them and they transformed the lives of over a thousand special forces veterans through their advocacy. So it'll be great to see them.

3L1T3 (28:06.97)
yeah.

3L1T3 (28:21.986)
Yeah, I really, I wish I had Bryan here today. He had worked today, but he couldn't make it. I was, he's a USMC veteran and he, yeah, he's been really excited about just, you know, talking to all these people about this different, you know, plant medicines becoming just more available, especially through military, you know. That's right. Well, Senator Sinema, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Well, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you. looking forward to meeting you at the conference. I'll see you there in person.

For sure, that'll be amazing. Just a week to go.

Gosh, is it that soon?

I know, right? Yeah. It's going to be fun. But I thank you for taking the time being here with me. I'll let you guys know and keep you guys, your team informed when we drop this out. Thank you.

Kyrsten (29:07.362)
Wonderful. Thanks so much. Have a great day.

Kyrsten (29:14.798)
you

3L1T3 (31:43.106)
back guys. So that was my interview with Senator Kirsten Sinema from Arizona, former senator. Yeah, I thought it went well.

Yeah, that was great. was very interesting to hear about the scholarship with the Special Forces members and to go and get Ibogaine treatment. That's really, that's pretty awesome.

was really cool. Yeah, I didn't. I know she mentioned earlier in the interview we talking how they did that through vets. And I totally, you know, I was like, I brought it up later in the interviews, you know, with Amber Crone and then she's like, Oh, yeah, that's who we go to. Yeah. So yeah, we're hopefully we'll be getting an interview with her soon too. Very cool. Yeah. Here's to one great guest though, you know, it's always good, like I said, to talk to different people and you know, what's

get different points of view. mean, that's kind of the point of all this, right? So, you know, whether you agree or disagree, you know, that's what it's all about. So Bryan, anything else? What'd think, man?

Yes.

Bryan (32:45.155)
Okay.

Bryan (32:49.291)
Like I said, I thought it was pretty good, but nothing else to add.

man. you guys, we need, you know, we always need more music. Hit us up. send us an email, DivergenceStates at gmail.com. Some Patreon, send in your music, you know, submissions. We'd love to hear them, feature them on the show. you know, thanks to the guests. Thanks to all our Patreons. you know, Dale Alien, I think he, signed up as a

as a, I think I got it that set up as a macro doser. you guys check it out, patreon.com divergent states. yeah, the Shulkin foundation, they're advertising for their, what is it? The, the Shulkin's 100th, Sasha Shulkin's 100th anniversary, 100th birthday celebration at psychedelic science. Yeah. So that's been running a few weeks up on the show. Just

you know, dynamic content on the podcast, but the and fireside projects, six to fireside, you guys have trouble the trip or need help integrating afterwards. It's a good spot to do. Yeah. And so they're not sponsoring the shows or anything, guys. These are we're just kind of doing this just to help them out. You know, fireside project does a good job. Right. Shulkin, you know, the Shulkins are a legacy. They're they.

the Shulkin farm and everything. So we're just helping them out now. again, we talked about earlier, we'll hopefully get some, we'll have some actual sponsors coming up.

Bryan (34:27.808)
That was very exciting.

Yeah. Um, hoping to get maybe some sponsors there. Um, talking to, like I said, we're to be a psychedelic science, 20, 25, there's going to be, um, Oh gosh. You know, I think they said something like 300 vendors or something there. Wow. Yeah. So I'm going to be passing out cards and talking to people there and, know, um, yeah, it's great. think next episode is going to be Ann Wagner from.

Remedy Center up in Toronto. good episode as this. We a good interview is what I should say. And yeah, it was a lot of fun. So you guys listen to that. That should be coming out probably right after a second. I look so I'm each one of you five. So this month, keep it. Keep your ears on for it. Be sure you're following Spotify, Apple, all that. I guess, well, we'll talk to you soon and good luck. Yeah, keep tripping.

That's right.

Bryan (35:28.098)
Catch you next time.

Yeah.

you