Psychedelic Science 2025: Behind the Curtain with MAPS’ Kevin Cranford

This week, we sit down with Kevin Cranford, Communications Officer at MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), to talk about the upcoming Psychedelic Science 2025 conference — what’s new, what’s different, and why it’s shaping up to be more than just another gathering. From navigating hype vs. science to MAPS’ comms strategy, Kevin shares how the org is threading the needle between community storytelling, rigorous research, and avoiding another "Wellness Industrial Complex" meltdown.

We dig into questions around affordability, integration, cross-aisle politics, harm reduction, and even Oprah's looming presence. It's a candid, funny, and thoughtful look at where the movement is headed — and how not to lose the soul of psychedelics in the process.

Also in this episode: Rainbow Gatherings, EDM afterparties, psychedelic pickup lines, and how to make ketamine uncool.

Key Takeaways

• MAPS is prioritizing integration over size for PS25, aiming for intentional connections rather than sheer numbers.
• The future of psychedelics lies in dialogue, not dogma — MAPS welcomes skeptics, clinicians, artists, and policy-makers under the same roof.
• Storytelling beats data alone — personal narratives help bring complex psychedelic science to wider audiences.
• MAPS consciously avoids hype by deferring to the science and resisting exaggerated claims.
• Access and affordability are still big questions — MAPS is actively seeking insurance and donation pathways to reduce sticker shock for marginalized communities.
• There’s tension in the movement between spiritual influencers and clinical research — and MAPS isn’t shying away from those debates.
• The goal is to make psychedelics boring. That’s how you mainstream a revolution.

 Chapter Markers

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Conference Overview
03:14 Psychedelic Science 2025: A Cultural Gathering
06:05 Target Audience and Conference Experience
09:01 Balancing Science and Experience
11:56 Community Dynamics and Open Dialogue
14:56 Storytelling in Psychedelic Advocacy
18:04 Addressing Criticism and Ensuring Access
20:55 Future of Psychedelic Research and Regulation
27:25 Curating Online Communities for Quality Engagement
29:03 Learning from Past Mistakes in Psychedelic Movements
30:40 Bridging Political Divides in Psychedelic Advocacy
31:52 The Importance of Personal Stories in Psychedelic Healing
33:44 Exploring the Deep Space Experience at PS25
35:07 Innovative Ideas for Future Psychedelic Conferences
36:53 The Impact of Celebrity Endorsements on Psychedelic Culture
39:52 Making Psychedelics Boring for Future Generations
40:29 Reflections on the Psychedelic Community and Its Growth

https://shulginfoundation.org

Transcript

0:19

Hey everybody, welcome back. How are you doing? Back with Bryan. Not a lot, just getting us ready for Psychedelic Science 2025. Oh yeah. Yeah. Trying to hopefully maybe work out a deal with a hotel or something. Maybe do a sponsorship role with them. We can, you know, give them some call-outs or something. Anybody out in Denver? Hit us up. Yeah, let us know. Reach out, tell us where's a great place to stay. And if you know somebody that can help us get a discount, whatever. Yeah, come on, like sign up the Patreon. You guys want to help us out? We were just talking before this. 500 listeners on Spotify, like thousands of you guys listening out there every month, every, you know, every episode. Thank you guys for listening, for being a part of this. This is, building something and it's, it's awesome. Yeah, I there's been some steady growth. It's really exciting to see. We've got good ratings coming in on Spotify and Apple and keep putting those in there. anyway, who do we have today? Kevin Cranford, he is the communications officer for MAPS. Kevin earned his bachelor's and master's degree from Morgan State University, the premier HBCU in Baltimore, Maryland. After an early career spent at ESPN and ID Discovery working as a production assistant, Kevin came to MAPS after a decade in legal services, traveling the country's courtrooms as a trial presentation consultant. Drug policy has always been his passion. While in Maryland, Kevin spent years as a cannabis advocate, organizer in the DMV area, working with Maryland Normal, the National Cannabis Festival, and the Minority Cannabis Business Association. Now he's excited to bring his passion for communications and drug policy to MAPS. Outside of his professional life, Kevin enjoys hiking, ultimate frisbee, music, and the Ultimate statues of America account. lives in suburban Connecticut with his wife and two sons and their dog Bohgart. So yeah, we're going to have a little conversation with Kevin, talk about Psychedelic Science 2025, pick his brain on some stuff and, you know, we'll come back. you you Joining me today is Kevin Granford, Communications Officer at MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. Kevin's work sets at the intersection of public narrative, advocacy, and Psychedelic Science. He's here to talk to us about the upcoming Psychedelic Science 2025 Conference and the broader storytelling challenge facing the movement. Welcome, Kevin. Good, how are you? Good. You're welcome. absolutely. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, we're super excited about Psychedelic Science 2025. We've been talking and trying to get stuff going and interviews set up. So just kind of setting the stage for it. What Psychedelic Science 2025 meant to be is kind of a cultural gathering, a scientific conference. What's the? It's everything. It's the granddaddy of them all for psychedelics. It's like a convergence of all the best minds, all the enthusiasts, all the newcomers, all the curious, everybody just coming together to share best practices, share knowledge, uh commune with each other. Some people have been calling it like a psychedelic family reunion. So all the people that you've been chatting with online or might have seen at a conference years ago, this is the place where everybody just used to come out and come together. Yeah, I've seen a lot of really great speakers like Paul Stamets, uh Leonard Pickard gonna be there. mean, just a really stellar kind of lineup. Yeah, there's something truly for everybody. You got some researchers, you got Bessel VanDelkoek coming, author of uh The Body Keeps the Score, Rachel Yehuda who works at the VA, who's doing research on MDMA for PTSD with veterans. There's a policy stage full of a bunch of elected officials, former and currently serving. Communication stage, community stage, society stage for the normal folks is kind of. dealing with the ins and outs of the psychedelic industry as it's emerging. So really something for everybody here. So who would you say is like your target audience? Like when you guys are putting together your promotional materials and you're thinking of who's going to buy tickets to come see these speakers? Like who is who is that that you're thinking of? So surprisingly, outside of the general public and the enthusiast, it's been therapists. It's been therapists, it's been practitioners, it's been social workers, it's been folks who are gonna be taking this medicine to the public. They wanna get uh knowledge about it. They wanna see what's been working in different places and what hasn't been working in different places. Also legislators, legislative aides, folks who are uh in the policy world, again, just trying to see what works in different states, what works in different municipalities and could it possibly work for them. I guess generally curious people who have heard about this psychedelic renaissance, psychedelic revolution, and just kind of want to see how their way of life might fit into it or vice versa. Nice. So how is this year's conference or difference, how is this year's event going to be different from like 2023? Were oh there any lessons you took away from that experience? Yeah, 2023 was amazing. 12,000 people came. was the biggest conference in psychedelics. This year, the theme is integration. So we're really focusing on making things intentional, making sure it's felt, making sure people get those connections. With 12,000 people out there, there's a lot of missed connections, you know? But this time we're thinking if we make it intentional, not to say make it smaller, but make it more... connected to the people who are coming there, we feel like it will be more of a genuine authentic experience this time. Nice and kind of along those same lines, you've got, you know, researchers, artists, veterans, politicians, and therapists kind of all under the same roof. uh What kind of experience are you curating for the attendees? uh Man, multidisciplinary. We want them to run into somebody that they are just interested in, that they might not know. Scientists love artists. Artists love researchers. And just to kind of see how they might bounce off each other. We've been saying like, just to see what molecules bounce off each other at this conference is going to be amazing. It's not necessarily the sessions that you're going to be at, but the hallways you're going to be in or waiting in line for the bath and whatever. You're to see somebody's name tag and go, hey, you might do this or you might be interested in this. And you never know what might come of it. the friends you make in the hallway at these kind of conferences end up turning into lifelong friends, business connections, something that serious networking. Yeah, we said our kids throw the best parties. I mean, we really do. It's it's true. a great bunch of theater kids throwing this party, so it should look great. we're excited. That's right at my alley. I'm a theater kid myself. Well, it sounds like a really like sophisticated like approach to what to this community. Like I think back to like cannabis conferences and things like that. And we all kind of know that's about just going and smoking weed. Right. But like this doesn't come off like that. You're talking about like even like your target audience in terms of like who's going to buy tickets and come is not just people that are enthusiasts or interested. It's therapists. things like that, you this isn't like some big festival or, or, you know, just a bunch of hippies getting together. This is a really sophisticated group of people coming to do something important. Yeah, what I say in my personal life is I do drugs professionally. So this is our job. This is what I do. So we want to bring people together, have a safe time, have a good time, learn. But also it's the topic of drugs. like there's going to be after parties, there's going to be fun things, going be meditations, there's going to be height, there's going to be the culture of the psychedelic world as well that's going to be bubbling outside of the conference. So we look forward to bringing all that together. be good time to set up a DJ gig in Denver. Yep, I see. parties on psychedelicpsychedelicscience.org slash fun that are just every DJ whoever's like hey I'll set up something I'll do something there that week because they know that somebody in their crowds gonna be there you know so it's a good time OK, I didn't know that that tab existed. I'm definitely checking that out to see if we're done. Yeah, I they've got a I don't know if you guys are doing the after party or not, but I know they got close the NLS dream during the after party one night, a couple nights, I think so. he is playing uh a flying lotus and Reggie Walter doing a show uh drive by truckers blind melon just everything snow ravens playing like it's just some people know me now I'm close to 40 I don't know half these names the kids are excited so I'm excited Yeah, it sounds awesome. How do you make sure the conference appeals to both the data-driven kind of skeptics and more experience-oriented community at the same time? ah That's a good question. um We feel that we bring in enough people or have a big enough tent to bring in skeptics or people who might kick the tires a little bit harder on some of the psychedelic research that's coming out there. Some people have differing research, research that says A and B. Let's put them on the same stage and see what they can come up with. just, you know, again, to see what the best idea is, to share ideas and just to have those brains together is what we're looking Yeah, I mean, that's really one of the best ways you can kind of do that is dialogue. Just get out talking. ah If you guys know, had a protest at the end of our last uh conference, a big protest that went viral and everything. But the way that we handle those kind of things like Rick Doblin did so diplomatically is let those people take the mic. Tell us what you're upset about. And that deescalated it more than trying to brush them off the stage or anything like that. So let's bring in the tough ideas. Let's bring the tough conversations. Let's have them among friends, among enthusiasts, and let's find out what works best. That's a good point. And it also kind of reflects back to my own conversation with Rick and how uh just kind of forcing those hard conversations sometimes can really, as you said, de-escalate it right down. Instead of making a taboo, you're kind of throwing the open and it loses its steam. He's a visionary in that aspect. There's a lot of people that saying, don't do that. Or there's a lot of conversations that he has with people who are like, hey, Rick, you might not want to, but he's like, I don't see the harm in conversating with these folks. I don't see the harm in opening up dialogue. And we might not agree, but at least we know where we don't agree. So it's good. It's good. Well, and how those things are handled, really says a lot about the community itself as well. Also that we, neuroplasticity, we are able to open our minds and take in new information, even if it's different from our own opinions. uh I appreciate that about this community. I hope it stays as open-minded and we're looking to keep on cultivating open-minded community here. Well, I think we were talking about that last week, right, Lee, when we were talking about, uh, the big gatherings in the woods. Yeah. And I asked that specific question, like, do people get crazy there? And you're like, only at the alcohol camp. Yeah, that's really the main, um, yeah, the main issue is coming to a camp is what they call it. It's always upfront and it kind of actually serves the purpose of pulling heat away from the rest of the gathering. So. Yeah, and this kind of reminds me the same thing, Kevin, is like, I think clearly that that kind of mindset lives in this community. That's a really cool harm reduction strategy, keeping the alcohol tent up front. Don't let it get to everybody else. It really, I mean, it fascinates me sometimes how that whole system, they've got a whole system. I think 1974 was the first Rainbow Gathering and how they, try not to get too deep into that, but yeah, how they just have it set up is just little smart things. You're like, oh, that makes sense. You know, do it that way. So, and it's just, there's no leadership, you know, there's nobody in charge. It's all just community. And that's one of the best parts about it too. Is that like a burner community that does that? It's mainly just hippies. go into national forests once. Well, it's all over. have little like mini regional gatherings or what they're called, but there's also the national gathering. So they go into a national forest and that's, you know, anywhere from if it's a small one, it can be 5,000 people. If it's a big one, it can get up to 20,000 people. And they dig their own latrines. one guy hikes a piano down every year to make music. They set up stages. They, mean, all kinds of stuff. They do nightly communal meals where they, know, every kitchen will make meals and just pass out food to everyone. And really it's, it's a, it's a wook stream, but. I like to like fancy myself like a cultural enthusiast so I'm gonna dip my toe in that and see if I can get it right somehow. It's a really, yeah, it's, mean, they, don't know if they still do it, but it was welcome home.org and they usually don't announce until about a month before their nationals, which is July 4th every year. And they start every morning like, uh, tell noon ish rainbow noon, say. Um, but cause nobody really has clocks or watches. So, uh, about noon, everybody stays silent for meditation and prayer for the peace for the world. Then at noon there's a big party down in the main meadow and that's a lot of fun. Sounds like a good time. A hippie thing to say to someone, hey man, there's a party down at the meadow. We're gonna stop. We're gonna be quiet all the way till noon and then the party starts. work. I've actually seen a couple like parties in these psychedelic conferences where they have like a meditation hour before and then a serious like rave afterwards like That sounds like a lot of fun though, because you kind of concentrate and like focus the mind and then just hit it balls out. Sounds awesome. right, that's what's up. So let's get into the comms strategy a little bit. Maps is one of the few psychedelic orgs actively shaping national perception. How do you try to balance storytelling with scientific restraint? Woo, storytelling comes first. People are constantly on their phones, people are constantly on the web scrolling. You gotta give them something to sink into. A story with a person does a lot better than anything else. We've noticed on our social media, if you put a face on it, or a talking head, people are gonna listen to the video over just words. So if we have a good, compelling story coming from a good, compelling spokesperson, we feel that the message of the science and the headier stuff or the deeper data uh can get told to people. Yeah, it kind of filtered through, I guess, a little bit. Yeah, a lot of stuff we deal with is heady, deep, deep science and it's hard to explain the importance of that to lay people who have so much going on that they don't get why this study is important. So we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to make it important to them. That's awesome. uh Is there a concern that mixing wellness influencers, EDM artists, and neuroscientists may dilute the public trust at all? Yeah, that's a line that we're constantly focused on and watching because, to say there's anything wrong with wellness influencers, but it's not necessarily data. Just because it makes you feel well doesn't mean it might make more people to not feel well. We'd love to have some science behind it. But that's not to say that those anecdotal stories aren't powerful and don't have purpose within this movement. we have to try to... find a balance in who we're promoting as maps. We'd love to find a yoga teacher that does it and is also a nurse or something like that that kind of has the both minds to it. um But we're not, you know, we don't want to down put the wellness industry at all. A lot of those folks are going to be at this conference. So there's something there for them. There's a couple of panels with wellness on the topic. So, so, you know, like we're welcoming to them. Yeah, and it's good to a lot of times to hear all points of view as we bring it up sometimes. Yeah, I'm a science guy though. I want to know where you got that from. Just before put it in my body, like, what do hear? Right, that's kind of my my angle on it too. I'm like, okay, I want to know what what's going on with it, the science behind it. So. Well, you know, even though as much as we love the science. As much as we love the science and we love the fun from it, it's, you know, or the science, that's where how we all basically originally started was the fun. Like that's how we got into it, you know? I mean, I find it interesting even personally that that's why. In fact, I made a lot of those life choices and changes within myself because I was so fascinated with LSD and I wanted to be able to take it and have fun doing it and just like it was nothing. And so I had to make personal changes to myself to be able to do that. One thing about psychedelics is when you're interested in it, you start researching. You start doing like real science with like alcohol, even cannabis. I came into the cannabis store like you enjoy it. You have the recreation with it. But when your mind gets open to open, you're like, what was that? I need to know what that was and how that was. Yeah. That it just sends you. couldn't agree more. I feel like the only people who look into any of the science of alcohol are just like, I don't know, this is their, like, their connoisseurs that like they know, you know, ever drink with somebody like that? And they're like, yeah, do you know exactly about all of this detail? And you're like, geez, no, I don't. And then you feel kind of silly because you don't know any of it they know so much. Oh yeah, I can definitely taste the coriander. You're like, really? Check out this Cascadian Hobbs that pairs really well. Too much, But I agree with you 100 % when you start getting into these other ones, like when you talk about MDMA or LSD or something like that. Especially knowing the dangers and the things that have happened with people getting things that are not what they say it is, stuff like that. I feel like any responsible person in this scenario maybe wouldn't care to research the alcohol, but would definitely care to research. something that's handed to you in a baggie. Like, you can see what I can drop to make sure this is what it says. So yes, speaking of like that along those lines psychedelics have potential but they're not really a panacea. uh What is MAPS doing to kind to avoid that kind of overhype we saw in a lot of the wellness and cannabis communities? Yeah, so coming out of that FDA approval, when we were paired with Lycos, we had a lot of lawyers and inside talk about what we can say and can't say and making sure that we're not overselling anything. So even after we've kind of decoupled from that, those negotiations and FDA stuff, that still sticks in our mind of we don't want to oversell anything. We want to say this is what the science says for more information, like send people to more information, try not to give anybody a set conclusion on it. And that's it. That's what it does for you. Like you should always be searching for more information. We're not the end-all, be-all. We believe we have a lot of information, but we also have a lot of connections and connections to more information. That's a really good point. That's something MAPS does really good is disseminate that information. It's such a wealth of knowledge out there that they could bring to everyone. So just on that side. m website is, I mean we've been having a website since website started so this company's been around since, this organization's been around since 1986 so like we've had, we've been putting up articles forever, Rick's been putting up stuff forever so. Right, maps.org is just an invaluable resource to anybody really wanting to do any kind of research into psychedelics or wellness with that. um How is MAPS addressing criticisms around access and affordability in psychedelic therapy, especially for marginalized communities? Yeah, we're dealing with it head on. um We know that there's going to be sticker shock when the therapy gets rolled out to people. It's not what the prices are on the streets or in the underground. um Sister company Lycos is working with insurance companies, working with regulators to try to do the best they can to bring it down. Maps is our nonprofit, always looking for sponsors and donations to see if we could offset the price for certain marginalized communities. ah We're looking for ways, we're looking for answers. We don't necessarily know exactly how it's going to be done, but we know it's an issue in the industry and we're looking to start solving it. Yeah, and it's been a pretty common refrain a lot of times. It's going to be probably pretty high at first, like any kind of uh newer treatment, new to market treatment. but you know, as it comes down, you'll have things like insurance that'll start covering it. So that'll help bring costs down too. prepared medication after a couple of years of data exclusivity and everything like that. So it'll trickle down, um but again, MAPS is for everybody, so we hope that it trickles up too in different ways, not necessarily saying, but we hope that we meet in the middle and find a nice price point for everybody eventually. That's awesome. Will maps use the Psychedelic Science 25 platform to explicitly challenge any over commercialization or misuse of the psychedelic brand in general? Some speakers might, yes. um Will Matt itself? No. We're opening and inviting everybody here, because we have a lot of people from the industry and business and venture capitalists who are coming. ah We want them to hear critical stances from the community and enthusiasts, so we hope that they sit in those panels and take those lumps and maybe hopefully talk to those people outside and see what they have to comment around. That's a good point, as you brought up earlier, as Rick said, know, give them the mic and we can all kind of discuss if they're over commercializing it or what. Yeah, they're overselling it in some points and like, I that mushroom doesn't do that, like there's no way in hell. But they'll still sell it to you. So we'd love to find ways to be more ethical, to be more authentic, again, priced, to be more like this sincere in how we're treating these medicines. That's great. em Yeah, I really appreciate what MAPS does to, you know, just like you said, even to bring the community together. It's kind of like a family reunion of psychedelics. Yeah, our crazy cousins are gonna come, our crazy uncles are gonna come, and that's okay. We want them to come. We want them to be heard, and then we're gonna talk back to them too, and we'll break bread together and see you guys in the middle. Be just like Thanksgiving. That's what it's like a little family is, isn't it? Like, we got those crazy cousins and they're gonna come too. Yeah, yeah. You got the one on the lawn is just kind of yelling at the tree and then everybody else inside trying to eat. buy conference tickets and not going come into the conference at all. They just want to be outside and be around. That's cool too. So after the potential MDMA approval coming up, uh where does the movement go? Does MAP shift from research to regulation? Now, MAPS is still going to be solid in research. We have LICOS to do the regulation and all that kind of stuff. We're steadily staying research, policy, and education. Okay, so what is your biggest concern about the psychedelic ecosystem right now? Biggest concern Well speaking for myself not for the company or things uh growing too big too fast um And also like the secrets kind of out so it's like who now knows the secret and like how are they gonna react to like all this knowledge is kind of makes me like weary like not everybody should have psychedelics um and some people people that do get these delusions of grandeur and think something like So I just want to make sure that the right people are getting turned on to this. I'm not sure how to do that exactly, but uh yeah, it's all I have. I mean, for me, think it's a lot of times education, um continually preaching things like set, setting, guide, safety net, uh and a lot of those things, you know, just continually, continually pushing that and just ingraining it within their heads. You can really, you know, reach a lot of people and help those that can benefit from it, you know, actually do. And this is like different in this day and age where we might have been influenced by peers and friends who had a special relationship with these things. They're kind of coming to us one-to-one as a person, whereas somebody now is seeing it on Instagram or seeing it on the news or just see like a talk, quick talk about it and they have to go search it out themselves. Just kind of the way people get into this ecosystem is. yeah, that's I mean, that's our psychonaut. That's how it was born is just people looking for information. It's just so many people come on just hey, what can I do? Can I use this with this or does this help with this? There was a thread yesterday. I thought was really interesting. Someone was asking if they thought psilocybin specifically helped with pain. And there were a few people in there and I actually thought of one of my own kind of anecdotal experiences. found out later I'd had broken ribs, but a friend of mine gave me uh some liquid LSD at a dead show. And that night I didn't feel anything. I just danced all night and it was amazing. But the next day I found out I had broken ribs. Yeah, I really appreciate the community you guys have grown. It's amazing. Over 500,000 people. I've run a couple internet communities. I mean, after a while, they usually go to shit, don't they? But to keep it going for this long is impressive. And it keeps active. And people are generally nice to each other. Yeah, it's taken a long time of curation basically of you know trying to keep it democratic but also curate away a lot of the I guess the more self-destructive you know um tendencies towards large groups on the internet Yeah, they usually devolve. uh I've studied this kind of stuff like this, researching. Yeah, it's hard to keep up, so who knows? That's been, like I said, really the challenge behind it because I see a lot of these communities on there. They'll have a couple million users and everything. But you would go in and look at the, not putting any of them down, but it's memes and AI art and just there's not a lot of quality or thought within the actual posting. That's also kudos to the ecosystem. These people are really thoughtful people. They're not coming there to shitpost or spam anything. They kind of want to have that connection or ask serious questions because they're seriously doing some self-exploration. Right. So how do we avoid the same mistakes during the first wave of psychedelics or the wellness boom? Hold each other accountable as much as possible. If we can, like as a community, check the folks who are overstepping what they're saying, overstepping what they're doing, overselling, overpromising, ah but also bring folks back in and don't just cut them out forever. Folks make mistakes ah and try to like... accompanying of other people even if you have different opinions and not bash folks because I saw like The weed industry in the first ten years was like the Wild West like this is popping up business is going down It was dealing from each other like it just got ugly as fast as it could as fast as the money got into it Oh, yeah, that's something you want to avoid in any industry Hopefully it's an industry that with heart and mind and not greed, but I mean when money comes in electorally differently regardless of what they're selling. Right, we saw a lot of like we saw Arkansas try to prevent that in the cannabis industry here just with the different provisions they put in place, how much it costs to even apply for a license, just things like that to really limit, you know, nobody that's had any experience or, you know, like, it's a big business venture, and plus it's a lottery. So really kind of cutting it down to those who still want to be in it. And even with those preventative measures, we still saw things like that here in Arkansas. Yeah, there's still cronyism, there's still ways that people slip in between the law. uh We hope that Psychedelic Science and bringing together all these state legislators, can figure out what works best for this state or what might not have worked in this state. When they get up on the stage and tell it to each other, they can take those notes and bring it back and hopefully help the people where they live. Yeah, that's one thing I really respect and I've noticed MAPS has been doing more of is reaching across the aisle, so to speak, to people not traditionally associated with psychedelics. ah Instead of just having, say, Bernie Sanders, you guys have Rick Scott coming this year. Yeah, it's important to talk across the aisle. We're multi-partisan, as we say, not bipartisan. Whoever political ilk you come from, if you're interested in psychedelics, we'll have some information, we'll have some conversation for you. Omni-partisan, if you will. and yeah, Rick Perry's coming again, I think. like, really want a Christian Cinemas coming. ah Yeah, we're a big tent. Let's have the conversations. We agree on psychedelics or agree on the research of psychedelics. Let's start there and then see where we can. Right, and that's really what's important is the medicine and the science behind it and the care that we can help people have, I guess. Again, back to anecdotal stories, Rick Perry at the last Psychedelic Science told the story of a veteran that came to his house and he lived with him for a while and he talked to him about his breakthroughs through use. think it was Ibogaine. And that's what Rick needed. He just needed a person to sit there and talk to him. didn't need data. He didn't need a packet of stuff. He just needed somebody to sit over his table and be like, hey, this is how it made me feel. This is why I'm better. And if that's what it takes, hell, we have thousands of people. So we just need to get somebody for everybody. Hopefully change enough minds. Yeah, we actually just finished an episode with Tom Fiegel about Ibogaine. Yeah, he's a really great guy. He's just really engaging to talk to. it also reminds me, kind of, you're talking just sitting with someone. think we talked to the Zend-O project, too. And that's one of their big things, is just sitting with people and listening and being present and aware. Yeah, they'll be at the, it's like the science as well. I think they're doing a training. uh I've done one in the past and just, it's powerful just to with somebody. Whether they're going through a good time or a bad time, just to just be quiet and just take them in as a person. Back in comms, somebody down to deescalate, whatever the hell's going on in their experience. yeah. You went through one of the coachings at the one of their coaching sessions Okay. oh Yeah, I'm trying to get on them. Hopefully the next training after the conference, hopefully try to get in and just kind of experience that myself, see how that goes. It's good to have in your back pocket. You never know when you're going to need it. You never know when you're be that guy with the cape on and have to show up and help somebody. it's good to know. Yeah, it's it sounds like I mean the whole Psychedelic Science 2025 and being in Denver. mean Denver now that Colorado psychedelics are decriminalized and marijuana has been legalized there forever. Just I mean it doesn't sound like it. Right. It doesn't sound like you could have a better setting anywhere. You know. They've set the setting for us, so we hope they go there and have a good and responsible. Yeah, it definitely sounds like a great time. um The deep space in the artist, what could you tell us more about that? Yeah, Deep Space has now exploded. It's going to be like a satellite everywhere throughout the conference. There's going be different rooms that will encompass Deep Space. And like little satellite rooms, there'll be a tea room, there'll be a meditation room, there'll be a silent room, there'll be a yoga room. This is like different themes on the Deep Space, but the art is going to be a little bit everywhere this time. That's really exciting. That sounds great. Yeah, it really does. I love all the art and the just the different variants styles of psychedelic art, by the way. It's kind of another little thing. That would make a unique conference. You can just come there look at art if you want to and you'll fill your week. It's that cool, that different. again, you never know what you're going to bump into looking at some random piece of psychedelic art. Right. So we kind of talked a little bit about what you can share, but what's something you wish you could program at PS25. I would like a psychedelic debate, like a debate show. Or if we get two of the biggest thinkers and put them head to head on a couple different topics and just hear them go at it and have a lively crowd kind of just cheering them on for points they like or don't like. I think that would be pretty cool just to kind get everybody a little bit raucous, a little bit loud, then do something different. Yeah, it sounds like that would be a really fun time. My idea was uh trying to get like Rick Strausman, Rick Doblin and like Hamilton Morris or Leonard Pickard and maybe get a smoke circle and just record it like that 70s show. If you hang out around the conference, you'll find that happening. You'll find that. oh Yeah, that would just be awesome. think it'd be, you know, just be a fly on the wall during those conversations. just be fascinating. He has a joint and he's passed it to you. So what's a psychedelic cliche or phrase you personally kind of just roll your eyes at? man, I said one earlier, psychedelic revolution, or renaissance, psychedelic renaissance. Can't stand it, it's overused. But, people know what you're talking about. that's like, you're trying to get a message across, that's the easiest way. Yeah, I've noticed and now I keep hearing it. I kept hearing it for years, but right now it only has been the only real time I felt like it was applicable at all. Like it could actually be used as a psychedelic renaissance now. Okay. But how ironic, by the time you can use it, it's already been played out. They call it something whole- completely new. Right. I have avoided even calling it that for the longest time, but I feel like yeah just since This past probably six months a year. I'm like, okay It kind of does feel like a psychedelic revolution now or Renaissance, but it's only just now but they've been using it for years. So yeah It's not going anywhere. ah When the mainstream media picks it up, all these newspapers and then yeah, out let's get it. Well, Oprah uh endorsed it just like a month or two ago with Michael Pollard. I was like, what? Oprah is an editorial director, Hilar Guzman is going to be at the conference so we're hoping to get her at the next one. Yeah, oh That would be wild. I love that. You have to lock the doors man, because there'd be too many soccer moms in there. Can you imagine Oprah like... Dude, no, I can't imagine. I'm trying to right now. it's it's like, it's like flickering in and out. Like, it's like, that just can't be real, dude. you. Give us two years. Again, Hilara's gonna come, we're gonna wine and dine her, she's gonna have a great time, she's see how normal we are, and then Oprah. Watch. Oprah. Speak of it into existence. Yeah, that that is that would I mean, huge, huge like I heard you know, I heard some pushback even on the subreddit people being like, it's Oprah now or not with these soccer moms like, what are you talking about? This is what we want. Been going to EDC and uh all the other huge events like wake on like they all go to that shit, dude Maybe we'll have some healing in these soccer moms and we'll finally have like a decent society. It's the gift and the curse. We want to expose, we want people to know about it, but it's like, knows about it, it's not cool and sexy anymore. Right, I to get into something even weirder. But just like with weed, I think that's what we want. We don't want it to be sexy. Kids don't want to use it if Oprah's using it. Like, what? Grandma using Oprah? This not gonna be cool. It's a 10 strip for you, 10 strip for you, 10 strip for you. It almost becomes like taking your vitamins like did you trip? I don't need this. it's not going to be cool and then by that point it could be easily regulated, it's not going to be as sexy, like yeah. I mean, yeah, that's kind of what even when I talked to Rick the first time when we talked about it, he said, you how do I plan on talking to my child about psychedelics or drugs? And my response is, just going to make it boring. Rick has been, he doesn't know this, but he's been like a really like instrumental in how I think about psychedelic parenting. ah He lives it, like he talks about this stuff, but like his kids are so well adjusted, don't even want to get into like, if your dad was the Rick Daddle, wouldn't you want to be in psychedelics? He goes like, no, that's just boring, this is what dad does. Like that's a long example of how he does it very well and does it boringly enough to where it's not like, he was with the kids. Right. We were talking about it was the Amsterdam model. you know, that's the old person's drug. Nobody wants to smoke weed. So they made it boring. so by doing that, got all the kids off of it. Yeah, that reminds me of a joke I heard the other day. How uncool do you have to be to make ketamine uncool? Sorry. Yeah, cool. the punchline I'm like thinking Yeah, who would be that uncool who made ketamine that uncool? Bryan, you got anything you want to add on that? But no, this was really a great conversation. uh Thanks for joining us, Kevin. It's been not only fun to chat about all these things, it's fun to listen to some of the things that you've had to say and some of your stories from the last conference and everything else. So just really excited and definitely appreciate your time. Thank you. Look forward to having you guys in Denver and having party with me. be awesome. psychedelicscience.org. You guys check them out there. You guys follow on Instagram. uh Propeller, think, doing a lot of the stuff for you guys. helping us out with some after parties as well. Check out CyclicScience.org, Maps.org, follow us on IG, Facebook, all your social medias. That's great. Yeah, appreciate it, Well, hopefully we'll see you there. you you you you All right, guys, welcome back. That was our interview with Kevin Cranford, the communications officer for maps. that was great, man. was a great time talking with him. Yeah, he's again, you know, I hate to sound like a broken record sometimes, but you know, it's so fascinating just talking to all these different people. And yeah, like he just, you know, he's his background and then, mean, his job is cool as shit. How cool would that be to just kind of organize communications for maps? Yeah, no, it's exciting. He said it himself, know, like he does drugs professionally, essentially. um amateurs here. He's the professional. Um, but, uh, yeah, that's really cool. And I love how this community, cause me, as you guys know, my whole thing is that I'm not very experienced with psychedelics. So, um, I'm an outsider looking in and I come from a world where these sorts of things are really put down and demonized, you know, especially in the military community. I don't know how much it is these days now, but back in the early 2000s, mean, cannabis, psychedelics, anything like that. Like, I mean, It was no good for you to be doing. to, uh, anyway, to see how tight this community is and to see how everybody's so focused on actual research and excited about the science and yeah, it's very exciting. It blows me away. Like I said, just, you you come in and I was like, I've had the subreddit. Maybe I'll just ask some people. And the response has been overwhelming. And, know, we've had, you know, with you, um I love your, your, uh, you know, your point of view. You give me like a lot of times I'm so, I get so wrapped up and lost within deep in these conversations. I forget that. And half the people have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about. So it's great. That's like I've I kind of kick it around privately. I call you my ground control. ah So yeah, you guys follow us on Patreon. Follow us on Spotify, Apple, whatever you're listening to. Listen on YouTube, special like. you know, ah rate us wherever you're at. Follow us. We really appreciate all the listens. All you guys out there, we see the comments on Spotify sometimes, on YouTube. Reach out. We'll talk to you too. Nobody should be a stranger. Head us up on Patreon. uh Look at my bio. Got a link in my bio. Buy me a coffee, Elite 3L1T3. You do a one-time donation there. If you guys sign up uh on Buzzsprout, ah so divergentstates.buzzsprout.com. that goes directly to our hosting costs. You'll be directly putting in to help in us pay for the podcast. Right. Because it's not cheap. You have to pay to get the episodes out onto platforms and to have websites and all those things. Right. All this takes time and money and right now it's coming out of our pocket just trying to get this done. So you guys help us out. You want to hear more of this, find value in this, hit us up. uh with that, you guys keep exploring. We'll be back. Yeah. The bigger the podcast gets, the bigger the guests and The more fun we can have. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. So yeah, you guys keep at it and we'll be back. our next episode, we're going to be coming at you guys live. Nightly updates from Denver. Hopefully with like Kevin in person, have him right there. We're talking about the smoke circle with Rick Strausman and Rick Doblin and Hamilton Moore, whatever we can. We'll have our That 70s Show smoke circle. It'd be freaking awesome. So you guys just hit us up if you want to hear about that. Right. Also, got what we got some music from Flintwick tonight, right? Yeah, Flintwick, thank you. I always love his jams. It's a fun, fun thing. We've been lucky so far with people sending us music. And again, if any of you out there are music producers, have friends that are music producers. Yeah. Or just. Yeah, just want to do it yourself. You're just in your kind of in your garage making your own funky music. Send it on over to us. uh Yeah, we've got. uh Gosh, it's just there's so much and just real excited to bring it all to you guys. So, uh you know, hopefully we'll see you. Oh, we've I almost forgot we've got Adam Strauss is going to be coming up. the comedian cured his OCD with psilocybin mushrooms. Really interesting. then, uh, yeah, he's, he's a really funny guy. They, not just a fun guy too. Right. And then, uh, got Paul F Austin and, uh, he's a micro dosing coach, um, real big on social media circuit. Talk circuit. He's done a lot of talks and so, uh, yeah, excited and have, we just, got an email today, a cold call from somebody wanting to come on the podcast. I didn't have to reach out to them. So I know, look at that. They're coming to me now. Yeah. Send us your pitch. You guys want to come on, you guys got something interested you want to talk about? Shoot us an email. DiversionStates at gmail.com. Yeah. So all right, guys, we'll see you next time. Hopefully next time we'll be coming at you live from Denver. Yeah, hopefully. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed we get the support. oh you