DylAlien on Psychedelic Music Culture: Trance Rituals, Cosmic Giggles & Prankster Wisdom

In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Dylalien: psychedelic DJ, producer, schoolteacher, and longtime organizer of Goa Gil’s legendary all-night, open-air ritual dance parties. You’ve heard his music on this podcast, but in this conversation, we go deep on what it means to create and participate in psychedelic music culture at its most raw, weird, and transformative.

Together, we explore:

• The life and legacy of Goa Gil, trance music’s spiritual godfather
• The influence of Hindu mysticism and Shiva archetypes in psychedelic culture
• The cosmic giggle: what happens when you dance all night and see the joke behind the universe
• DJing while tripping, playing to the sunrise, and accessing “wizard vision”
• How sound, sync, and group dance create stacked synchronicities
• Why trance is a tool, music is a medicine, and exhaustion is a drug
• The evolution of the underground, from vinyl and anonymity to phones and algorithms
• Being a high school teacher with a secret psychedelic life (“Did you just say that out loud?”)
• Pranksters, dosed swimming pools, and the chaos magic of the California scene
• How a late-in-life awakening led him to start releasing music, after decades in the shadows

We also talk about how psychedelic states can permanently shift your view of reality—how even sobriety feels different once you've danced with the universe. Dylalien reflects on how psychedelics pushed him to go vegan, redefined his ideas about spirituality, and reminded him again and again: “I don’t know anything. And that’s OK.”

This episode blends stories, insight, laughter, and nostalgia with the kind of wisdom that only comes from living decades in a counterculture groove. Whether you’re a musician, a tripper, a Deadhead, or just someone who’s felt the beat pull them into something bigger—you’ll feel at home here.

🎧 Music by Dylalien
🔗 Learn more about Goa Gil’s legacy and psychedelic trance culture
🧠 Support the show: patreon.com/divergentstates
🎤 Want to be on the podcast? Hit us up on Reddit, Instagram, or TikTok.

#Psytrance #GoaGil #PsychedelicMusic #CosmicGiggle #Psychedelics #Deadhead #DivergentStates #Pranksters #TerrenceMcKenna #DJCulture #TranceDance #PsychedelicExperience

Big thank you Bryan, Dylalien, Flintwick, Ach, and Brad of Integration Communications!

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to DylAlien and Goa Gil
02:46 The Impact of Goa Gil on Electronic Music
05:58 The Cosmic Giggle and Psychedelic Experiences
08:58 The Evolution of Music and Technology
11:58 The Role of Music in Trance and Connection
15:45 The Changing Landscape of Music Festivals
18:03 Teaching and Navigating Youth Culture
21:05 The Joy of Musical Collaboration
24:05 The Therapeutic Power of Music and Psychedelics
27:59 Exploring the Power of Music and Drumming
34:19 The Journey into Music and Creativity
37:24 Psychedelics and Reality: A New Perspective
49:57 Microdosing: A Therapeutic Alternative
52:55 Building a Community Through Psychedelics

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Transcript

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0:17

Hey everybody, welcome back to Divergent States. I'm Elite, your Host, back again with Bryan. It's always good to have you back. Been a crazy couple weeks as always. Tonight we're here with Dale Alien, the guy that did our intro music and hooked us up with that. we're excited to have him here. How you doing, man? doing great. Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to have you, man. It's great to have you here. So we're talking a little bit and you were telling us about about Goa Gil. And so who was Goa Gil? So, yeah, Goa Gil was really an amazing DJ who, in a lot of ways, was the electronic music's version of the Grateful Dead. He played 24 hours sets out in nature for people to have like a ritualistic music experience. And I first... Heard him the weekend I graduated from college. It coincided with the first time that I really took more than one tab of acid. Before I moved to California, everybody in my hometown was like, hey listen, you can trip once a month. If you do it more than that, it'll be too much. And then I got to California and they were like, wow, you could trip every day if you want. Yeah, and at the time that's all I needed to hear. mean, I'm quite a bit older now, but as a 21 year old, that was really exciting. then so I caught Gil playing at Burning Man, which I'd never heard about either. Some friends were like, hey, do you want to go to Burning Man? This is 1997. And I was like, hey, what's that? You know, is there music there? And they were like, no, not really. You got to bring your own food. It's camp out. And I was like, I really, at this point I was starting to get into electronic music, but I hadn't really danced much. you know, Gil played after the man burned right next to the man. And I caught the whole set and it was just the first time I really ever danced and ever experienced the trance dance experience, I guess, which has, you know, been happening forever for all kinds of music, especially in like, ritualistic African or Indian music, it goes back a very long time. I ended up wanting to find out everything I could about that. So the next year, Goagill toured around the whole world. He was based in California, but I hadn't met him yet. And so I went to Europe for the summer and decided to go to every show that he had. And which was five, I think. And Well, it's an appropriate time for this story. The first time he called me into the DJ booth, he was like, hey, come into the DJ booth. I hear you're from San Francisco. I'm from San Francisco. I was like, great. And he's like, I'd like you to meet somebody. And Albert Hoffman was in the DJ booth. Which is important because today's Albert Hoffman's birthday. he was 124. So he was like 95 or six years old still at that point. You know, I was tripping, he was tripping a little bit, and I was able to just be like, hey, thanks from everybody in California. Like, the whole state thanks you for your existence. He's a world at this point. He's amazing. Oh, yeah, it was really incredible. then, you know, starting in the year 2000, I started to help with some friends organize the Goa Gil parties here in California, where we had two a year. And I organized those for two decades until the pandemic. you know, Gil continued to play 24-hour sets until he was 71 years old. And then he got cancer and passed when he was 72, living an incredibly full life. so the music that I got to experience really impacted me a whole lot because his sets are really like a journey. It was really interesting. Some deadheads would come. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with that scene either. And they were like, wow. This is crazy because some people have chairs here and they'll sit down for a bit. Then in the dead shows you don't sit down because like they're only going to play five hours, four hours and that's it. And then this guy's like literally playing like up to 32 hours sometime. You know, just like he would crazy. Yeah, he was a he spent his 70s and 80s, the decades 70s and 80s in India being a Baba. So he had an apprenticeship, I guess, with like Hindu people that are followers of Shiva and in a lot of ways like the archetype of Shiva is like a great archetype when thinking about tripping or even life in general because it's like a high vantage point to see certain things, you know, so I ended up writing all the music, not me. I ended up writing music that he would play in the daytime on Sunday, which would often be like, I'm not sure if you're familiar, like, say you trip and you trip all night and the next day you're still up. That part of the trip is you tend to be kind of in a good mood. You're joking around a lot. Maybe the term the cosmic giggle has found you. So I really ended up embracing that part of the music, which is like, hey, what's the music for the cosmic giggle? I guess and I think Robert Anton Wilson was the first person to really cone like coin that term that I know of you know, but I think it's I mean actually I think I have listed as one of my favorite posts that you guys had on Psychonauts last year was somebody talking about that Yeah, I think it's like you get high enough and you're like all the jokes that's embedded in the universe, you know Well, plus that sounds like a really good song name. Like, a great, great track. This is called Giggle, right? yeah. So for sure. like, you know, a lot of the music has neuro-linguistical programming, the same thing that you would use in advertising. So advertising, like there's this buildup and then bam, there's a message, you know? And then because I'm so aware that, well, one, propaganda works, and two, I don't know anything. So I try to leave the messaging really... archetypal. For instance, like either I'll go with like something that's like a build in the music and then it just says nature. Or I like to go the Mary Prankster's route, which is like, let's just like inundate with like meta silliness. That's just like makes you laugh. And, and I think in a lot of ways that was inspired by the feeling I've experienced many times, especially on mushrooms where you start laughing uncontrollably. and then you can just feel parts of your body relaxing that you're like, maybe this part of my body has never been relaxed in like my whole life. Like I'm not even sure. Yeah, that's crazy. True, too. What I usually consider, I'd like to call that I was almost like a cathartic laugh when you get with those mushroom giggles. It just, can't, it's like a cathartic laugh, which is kind of a, I guess a weird kind of term, but yeah, I can, I, and it, I have a weird, it's, I have a weird time with psilocybin a lot. I feel like I get more of a body load from it. I tend towards more, I tend towards more and just LSD is probably my favorite, but you know, DMT too. think there's something, one I really like to do is mescaline, but. You know, I guess getting back to the trans, that's the sorry, kind of a little. And then everything you just said would probably be like a good sample in the middle of a trance song. Right. getting back to whatever I said. You know like and then back what I seen in the song kicks back in you know Right. on it sample it later. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. My favorite would probably be this. That's where you build it right there. My favorite would be like, did you get to the top? Mescaline. There's a big hit that's just called Mescaline that does exactly what you just said. By this being called 1200 mics. nice. At 1200 mics, they're pretty good. Yeah, I don't I don't remember the last time I was able to handle 1200 mics. Yeah, I miss childhood too. Well, I'm not childhood, but like I consider my 20s my childhood in a lot of ways and then I had and then I mean, I'm probably slightly on the spectrum. like, know, psychedelics did wonders for me. And then now I feel like I tripped like a normal person and that like when I trip, I get like super high. mean, for a decade, I probably was always tripping every time I performed music. Maybe I was addicted to it a little bit because It almost feels like, I don't know if you guys feel like this, but like, it almost feels like you're getting wizard vision, you know? And then I can even access the Akashic record if I need to, as long as it's not for anything maybe nefarious. And then you start to be like, wow, I'm like really firing in all cylinders right now. So now, mean, boy, when I trip, I'm kind of overwhelmed sometime. Wow, I can't believe I used to be on stage in front of people doing this. Now I can't with my dog, you know, but Right. say last time I was last time I did it that high. think it was a couple of years ago at the day I went to a dead show and at the Bill Graham down there and downtown San Francisco. somebody had love jug, which is, you know, quite a few that he put. what God knows how many hits of acid in there and some MDMA and stuff. And I drank, you know, good quarter of the bottle before I remembered, yeah, I probably shouldn't drink all this. And yeah, it was an interesting night. Like, I feel like a... It's a very modest way to put your experience. Yeah, yeah, well we ended with with it some you know, just he had a tank of nitrous oxide kind of finishing everything off and it puts a Nitrous really puts you in those recursive thoughts oops So it was just uh, just coming back on him. So yeah, that was yeah, that's what I say It was an interesting night. But yeah, it um, I mean trance that speaking you're talking about the about the the Grateful Dead earlier I mean, that's a huge part of their shows. They would do the the drum space right in the middle. Yeah. Jimmy, Jimmy, Mickey has the the band. You know, one of my best memories of San Francisco was at the Villegram, seeing Mickey kick the beam that night. He was there and he was like playing is this huge. think I don't know. It's probably 10, 15 feet long. It's huge. Just like. stringed instrument that'll do these just, you know, other worldly tones and he'll play it like a slide guitar or sometimes you're like a percussion instrument. But yeah, he'll see and Mickey kick that beam was just, I was, you know, as you know, kind of the same with how you're talking about, you know, being able to work close with the, yeah, go a gill, you know, it's kind of that same place, that trance that, you know, puts you in another kind of head space. And then, that's I like you saying, I almost the cosmic giggle or the harmonics of the universe. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's for sure. Well, guys, I think we're going to take a listen to one of Dill Aliens tracks, speaking of all that. And we're going to come back, talk to him a little more, maybe get a little bit of the our top Reddit post for 2024. And we'll give it a call then. here you go. We'll talk to you guys soon. There's a global, totally there's a global movement. It's very small in the United States for many reasons. But for instance, I'll go to Brazil and play for 10,000, 15,000 people and everybody there is tattooed up with, it kind of looks like a Mad Max show with Brazilians. It's really big in Europe. There's a lot of people who... You know, and then, mean, honestly, like there's this idea that you can trance out and do this, and then once you start organizing something and you start selling tickets, it draws other dynamics. then, so there's people there, of course, and then the internet amplifies this greatly. So, I mean, I came from a scene where it used to be no phones ever, no pictures ever, like, and then now, of course, there's internet moments happening all the time, so. There's less personal expression than there used to be, but I feel like that might be just indicative of the times, you know, in a lot of ways. But, yeah, you know, I feel lucky that I continue to get to go places and dance a bunch and have this experience, because, you know, the rest of the time I'm a school teacher, which is great, you know. Sometimes I'll have kids that are... super stoned in class. And I'll just go up to him and I'll be like, hey, did you just say that out loud? And they don't know. Yes! You know, so that's like pretty- God, I love you do that. I love yeah like I was just about to ask you like do you fuck with them? because like that's exactly what I would do and That's brilliant. That's fucking brilliant. I love that Yeah, yeah, for sure. That's a lot of They deserve it. Yeah, right? Come to yeah, you come to class down. You're going to get fucked with a little bit. Right. We could tell your parents. Your parents didn't think so. So fucking deal with it, bro. Be smart about where you get high. Yeah, for sure. Totally. So, mean, that kind of brings me to another question, I guess, talking about how would you, how would you see the scene and how it's kind of changed up from, the long form? Like you said, Goa did 36 hour, you know, marathon and everything seems to move to this, you know, the short form, like tick tock 30 minutes. mean, 30 seconds. mean, you know, one minute. have you seen like music evolve? How have you seen music evolve like that? What you've been doing it. Well, it's interesting because with that also the tools to make music have become much more accessible, right? So when I started making music, it was very expensive. And, you know, maybe every year we'd buy one piece of equipment that could do one thing. Now, the tools are a lot more powerful. and the access to information. is a lot more, you know, like every day I'll go onto YouTube and I'll look up how do I use this synthesizer to do this and there'll be like some examples and stuff. So on that side, I think there has been a continuation of the art in a positive way for sure. And then sometimes I feel like, I mean, it sounds weird, you know, when I was little, there used to be this phrase, don't trust anybody over, what was it, 25, 30. don't trust anybody over this age. Now I feel like it's don't trust anybody under that age. And it's because maybe they've never had the chance to have the long thought that happens when you like turn off your mind for a long period. Put the phone, like, mean, I'm old. The first time I tripped, I didn't have a cell phone, you know, nor did I even think about going on the internet. Like I just like went to a rave, which seemed pretty futuristic at the time, you know, but like, And it was, but still it's not as futuristic as we are now. yeah, like I feel like, I mean, you know, my students, I'll ask them at the end of every year, hey, what's the biggest challenge you face? And all of them say, using the internet and social media, even though it's totally indicative of living, they find it to be the biggest challenge they face, you know, and how to, you know. So I think it's really... affected things a lot. then so sometimes when I'll play music, people are like, wow, that was, I've never experienced anything like that. Because it's a little bit like, mean, like I'm not very flashy when I perform. It's really about like, let's have an experience that we can all share and find the cosmic giggle or whatever, you know. Right. No, I get that. I see. Yeah, I agree with that. Sorry. Got a little stumbled. But yeah, I agree. Well, anything else to say is anything else you want to talk about on it? So we want to get to get her top top Reddit posts. Right. You really. So, yeah, you haven't really chimed in on it and it's kind of your thing a little bit. Well, no, this is something I've been thinking about. Like, I like to play music all the time, I guess. But I've never really tripped or anything or gone to a big festival where everybody was tripping. I've played a few shows here and there as far as DJing goes. There are probably more people tripping there than you remember, than you realized. That's probably true, like honestly. But I don't know, just, I've always, like music has always been something that kind of makes me naturally, I guess, trip. Sure. on its own. you know, just the visuals that I get in my head and things like that. So. It's whole different, once you get into music and psychedelics, kind of combining those two, it brings you in whole new places that you just never would have really gone before. When I'm fascinated by the idea of these like long sets, like especially if there's like some structure to it, which I imagine at some point in the middle there, you have to be like, dude, it's just like, we're to go kind of like this direction here. Like, but for some of it, there's, feel like there's some room to like have something kind of structured and like, it's this whole like really badass experience, like kind of knowing what you want to die. I love that idea. That sounds really, really cool. I mean, I think in a nutshell, this is an oversimplification, but those sets would be the beginning of the night on Saturday night is easy music. That's kind of easy to dance to, you know, it's casting a wide net. And then as the night progresses, the music actually in these rituals will get kind of darker and more intense. And around sunrise, the music switches vibes to where it's like a little bit more Euphoric in a way. Yeah, majestic like the sunrise is coming up and yeah And then afternoon is what we described as like kind of the cosmic giggly stuff. And then Sunday night when the sun's going down is like the craziest music you've ever heard. Like totally bananas. And then the only way you really like it is if you've gone through this journey where you're like listening to music, dancing and you're tired and you're with your friends. One of the other things I think about music in Tripping 2 is it creates like synchronicity stacked. Like, I don't know if you've ever experienced like listening to music with friends that are high and then you're all on the same page because you're listening to the same thing and then right sometimes it'll be like so many synchronicities happening right on top of each other you're just like whoa what's going on you know which which happens more when I'm listening to music with people than if I'm My second favorite, well actually my favorite thing to do is trip in the woods with three people. You know, but if I, if I, you know, need to do a big. specific. What you're describing there kind of reminds me of just like being in a band and jamming. you you got the guitar player and he starts playing a riff and then you like, I play drums. So for me, I'm like, okay, cool. And I come in with the beat and then the bass player starts going. And then like, even if you've got a singer and they can like, they can just ad lib on the spot, man, like the things that you can make up in the moment on the spot when everybody's just vibing together on that one thing, it's amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yeah, and it's a well-known phenomenon, that musicians, their brain waves sync, the alpha waves, I think, they start to sync as they're playing that music and they're just literally on the same wave and they're, like they'd say, they almost read each other's mind. It's amazing. Well, you can't. You totally... It's like... Or it's either reading each other's minds or sometimes it feels like I'm getting the same... Like there's this source of all music way above me. And then we're just both... All the musicians are just totally connected to it. So it's like... It's almost like you're playing the song that's in the room. And you're just... You know. Yeah, it's like, it's like the music's telling you what to play. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, like you're not creating it. It's almost like it's using you to let everybody else know that it exists. channeling the music almost. Yeah. And I think when you do that, you'll end up playing maybe sometimes better than you think you do based on your practice or going in totally different, you know, I mean, a lot of When you're locked in, man, you can do things that... Yeah. I think being locked in musically like that is one of the top joys of being a human. Absolutely. If you don't play music, you need to start. This is the truth. That's it. just like, wow, you know, every problem goes away. Yeah. And it takes a long time for them to come back. As soon as you start playing, it's not like they instantly come back. mean, this kind of gives you a buffer for a while. Like in a lot of ways, like a good trip, you know, totally. Or even a bad trip. Like a psychedelic experience often will give you a huge buffer from the traumas that you've been experiencing or just the fast pace of life, you know. For sure, yeah. Yeah, it really, yeah, I mean, it does. I think it kind of taps into that, kind of that, it relieves that anxiety of just day-to-day life, kind of just pulls it out and tugs it out of you a little bit. And I think that's one of the, you know, the beautiful parts about music and just how we all connect through that. Yeah. I mean, I, I've been playing guitar off and on for 20 years, but yeah, it's a lot of times it's not even playing anything specific. It's just noodling around and having fun. that's when really some of the best stuff that I do when I'm not thinking about it. I mean, one of the highest experiences I've had musically was just listening to somebody hit these wind chimes. And it was, I was like, whoa, whoa. I mean, you know, I was prepared for the experience by being very high, but. It's like how high are you on a scale of one to I'm going to a wind chime concert? How high are you? I'm on my way to a wind chime concert. Okay, please tell me you're not driving. Yeah, right? my gosh. Totally. It's good to say what it was, like even one of my most like, I mean, it was like a, even a non psychedelic experience was it was just a drum. Um, somebody came in with a drum and just beat it real low and slow and did meditation with it. And I guess the next thing I know, I was a crow flying over the, like the painted desert, uh, under a full moon right over the clouds. mean, it was so detailed, but it was, you know, just, you know, kind of like. As we're talking about kind of finding that that channel and finding that groove of the music and that's where it led me that time. Drums are it, you know? Like yeah, for sure. Yeah, I love the djembe. That's my, if I'm playing drums, that's, that's what I like to hit, you know? I play the kit and I'm terrible with hand drums like I can play a rhythm But I have no like hand drum talent like you know the guys that like can like roll the fingers and get to get all the different tones and everything I know that skill set Yeah, me neither. Occasionally, but I have to be wind chime high. That's when you can really tap into. I can really get the. Then somehow I'm like, oh, there we are. You can like, the drum to get that other tone and everything, you know, but yeah, most of the time not. Yeah. When you're wind chime high, you can hit it just right though. Yeah, there it is. We're going to make a t-shirt out of that. Sweet. Yeah, it was, you know, one of my favorite posts was from a year ago and it said, I started tribal singing on mushrooms. And then, I mean, that kind of ties into what we're talking about, you know, like in a lot of ways. And I've had that experience before in mushrooms too. And I sometimes wonder if that's just because I've tripped and listened to Terrence McKenna talk about... Did anybody speak in tongues before Terrence McKinnon tripping? Because I listened to that a lot tripping. I don't know if you know what I'm talking about, but he did an album where he's like, remember the very first time I smoked DMT. And there was these little creatures and they started to talk like this. Yee-oh, make him a waggle. Wopsy. And he goes on and on with this alien speech. And I was like, wow. That is the DMT elves. Wow. my gosh. know, like I've heard that before, you know, and then like, and then afterwards I was like, sometimes that would happen where I'd be like, my gosh, you Yeah. But one time I, you know, I'm a prankster at heart. So I was in Portugal and, tripping at a party with some Portuguese people. And then a long time ago, when I was a teenager, I was an exchange student in Portugal and I learned Portuguese. which I know how to speak, but I didn't tell any of these people in Portugal that so we're tripping and then I pretend to learn Portuguese because of this acid where I'm being so good. my God. And I was like, my God, I can't believe it's because of this liquid acid and then ban I can speak Portuguese like this is fucking they're like, my God. And I feel now I'm like, maybe I took that too far. No, but it kind of like tribal singing on mushrooms. and never trust a prankster. Yeah. That's great. Actually, yeah, you know, I mean nowadays when I'm at a party when the elders show up that's when I know shit's gonna get crazy like if there's some 50 60 70 year olds there cuz Cuz I mean I'm kind of older but like I'm not like They took way higher doses back then for sure, you know, so like like yeah And I mean gosh, I mean I've been to I was it in a Ken Kesey event here a while ago where he had dosed the swimming pool. Like the entire swimming pool was like dosed. Like I didn't even know how you could do that, you know? So like you walk in and my eyes were just like vibrating. I was like, Jesus, this is a crazy scene. You know, who does that? That's fucking intense. Yeah. It reminds me of Jerry Garcia with the birthday cake. Somebody put like 800 hits of LSD in the frosting for this birthday cake one before his show one time. And you know, it's like, yeah, I'll try a little bit of this birthday cake. Well, you're about to have a good time. Yeah, so that's not unusual for the pranksters in California for a party So like I mean I've gotten to the point now like I don't let go of my water bottle at all like, you know, cuz one time I Dosed pretty high while I was playing and I didn't know and then that was actually pretty terrifying Because it took me about an hour to realize it. I was on acid, you know, so was like, shit. I'm gonna die You know Like yeah, I guess like, you know, and then and then like Kind of had a whiteout which I've never had before everything turned white it was daytime, but my eyes were open and then I was like shit I'm on acid like there must have been acid in my water ball because I didn't take any acid today and And then it was then it was instant relief, know, But for sure I know Yeah, funny person, you know some pranksters came to one of our parties from England, you know, and They were doing really crazy stuff. So What they would do is like this guy would go into the porta potty and then he'd have his friend put a zip tie on the outside of the porta potty and then this guy would be like, fuck, I can't get out. somebody zip tied me in there. And then, my God, there's zip tying people into the porta potties. And people are like, my God, you can't go into the porta potties. my gosh. And it was like this thing. And it was just these jokes that people were playing. And I was like, what? What? Nobody's like using the porta potties anymore and like security's like why the hell isn't anybody using the portapos? my gosh, yeah. It's like nobody zip tying these guys are assholes. Don't listen to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love the drums. That's cool. That's cool. You play music. So how did you get started? Like, where did music begin for you? I had a guitar and I learned how to play guitar, but when I was super little on MTV, there was this Herbie Hancock live performance of this song called Rocket that was like really famous when I was like in third or fourth grade. And then it had this DJ who like had these headphones with an antenna and he was scratching and the song was Rocket. And then I remember being like, damn, that's the coolest shit I've ever seen. And then I started to air DJ well before I learned I mean, I started DJing when I was like 17. ambient music, experimental ambient music. So I would like take like advertisements and then I'd have music behind it. And then maybe I'd play some of the advertisement backwards. And then like, you know, just fuck around, you know, like I had a radio show for four years in college where they let me do whatever I want. And in Austin. Not too far from where you guys are so like So that was and I'd moved to San Francisco To continue making ambient music because at the time there was the ambient music capital of the world There was like, you know, the 15 people that are into ambient music all live there. So like, you know, I'm gonna go there and we're gonna like chill people the fuck out, you know, and then I ran into people There's dozens, dozens of us. I know right? I listen to birds and shit all the time. There's all these YouTube channels that are like, here's 12 hours of these birds from Africa. And I'm like, I'm all in on that. Yeah, know what I'm doing for the next 12 hours totally, you know for sure. So there are wind chimes YouTube channels I mean just so you know get in case you ever need it There's some really good like five hours of this really nice wind chime channel, you know, like every Yeah, I seriously dork out on on music and sound in general, you know, that's great How about you? How do you get started? I remember I'd moved to this new town. It was like eighth grade. I hadn't really played anything before. Like I'd played like trombone and band. But I liked music, but I made this new friend and I go over to his house to spend the night. And that evening, his dad and him, like we go downstairs and they've got like basically his dad plays guitar and he plays drums. I started, I sat and watched them jam. all night long, just making things up. And it was like the coolest thing I'd ever seen, because his dad was like really good at guitar. I'd never seen anybody that good in person before. And then my friend Aaron, he was fantastic on the drums. And so I just started there with just me watching and being completely blown away to them inviting me to try the drums and then just becoming obnoxiously obsessed with playing their drums all the time. you So that was one of your posts you were talking about. What was another one you had? Well, was about a month ago, there was a post that says reality is already psychedelic. And I resonate with that, you know, I think in a lot of ways, I mean, I can especially say it's hard to imagine, like now I'm like, I'm sober. What does that mean? Like I'm not high today, but I've had these experiences already. So like, don't know if you can, you can't, I mean, you've heard the expression, you can't unring a bell, you know, like, so Now that I've already tripped, mean, and then when I just opened up to like, is reality? I mean, it's almost like, whoa, it's very trippy. mean, you know, and I mean, you could be like, oh, the reality of the street I live on all the way out to the reality of the known universe. And between all those things, I mean, it's just, I wouldn't say like, I'm really not religious, but I was an atheist before I tripped. for sure. And then I was tripping and I was just like, I remember having this realization and laughing and just being like, damn, I don't know anything. How could I be so confident? I mean, atheism is like, no, there's nothing. I mean, that's like a smart person saying that. And I was just like, fuck, I don't know. I mean, and I'm from Texas and I went to public education. I mean, I really don't know. mean, fuck, don't know anything, you know? So like. Yeah, I tend to think of myself as agnostic more than anything. say I kind of don't really know, but... I mean I can see the fault in organized religion and then as being like a system of, know, organized religion and spirituality aren't the same thing. Kind of like, you know, in a trance dance experience at a big party, you can have a few people who are like, I want to have this experience and you have a few other people who are like, you know, I mean everybody's at a different place on their cosmic journey, I guess, you know. So I really liked that one. Interestingly, but like probably just for me, there was one that said psychedelics pushed me to become vegan. And then I haven't eaten meat in quite some time. And I can remember the first time I had, you I was after a music festival, we went to go eat and somebody ordered fish. And in my trippy mind, I was like, maybe I can bring the fish back to life with the, I'm high enough to do that. And it didn't happen. But then I was like, why did I even think that? And then I'm not a big preachy no meat eater, but that was something that would come up a lot for me in my trips, is like, is that what you want to do? then I just found that to be interesting. then four months ago, somebody posted, finally got the cosmic joke on psilocybin. But then they said, well, when it came down, I couldn't remember it, but it was really funny. What you were talking about about nitrous, that kind of reminds me a little bit too, because I feel like I don't have a lot of nitrous experience, but the ones I have, it's like, wow, I've got it all figured out, and then it's just like, and then the room just dissolved, then whoa, you know. And that's all sound related, you know, because sounds sound so, it's like you can almost, you get to see sounds differently, especially, don't try it at home, but when you combine LSD with nitrous. Right. Nitrous is always kind of a landing gear for me. Because it would bring me back to my peak for a few seconds as long as I kept it. And yeah, uses a landing gear. And by the time I was, you we were all done, ready, and just ready to pass out. Yeah. find cannabis like that too often sometimes. yeah, I wouldn't be coming down from a trip. Yeah, and it'll kind of like, we used to call it the shampoo effect. It's like you smoke a little bit and everything starts tingling again and you're like, sweet. So yeah, those have been my, although I I don't post a lot in there, but I read it voraciously and really appreciate it. Yeah. I, I, I've, I've been posting a little more than I have lately, but you know, a lot of it's just kind of let people know what we're doing here. And, you know, I don't know. Like I posted up the other day. I posted those, the seven psychonaut principles. Thanks. Yeah. I started kicking those around. Yeah. A few weeks before and was just, and you know, the first one for me was automatically, you know, you know, no self harm. test your substances, research what you're gonna do, know what you're gonna, know, and that's your, you know, so it's, and then I guess number two was hurt nobody else. And the rest of them kind of just fell into place. So I think, yeah, I think that kind of, kind of goes with that as much as, you know, I try to read and try to kind of take in what everybody says. So, but when I'm trying to, you know, when I try to kind of think of what I should, when I should post something on there, usually I try to make it real, you know, kind of directed at the community. So. Which is such a big community, I mean, you know what I mean. And it's an internet community, so that's a lot different than an in-person community, I feel. Well, that was part of it too. And also just just us realizing that it is a community, you know, that we that we that even though we're we're all, you know, everywhere in the world, I saw like one of our downloads for the podcast the other night came from I think it was Chelsea, Chelsea Square or something in London, which is like where the Royal Palace or where Parliament is. I was like, oh, wow, we're getting that awesome. Obviously. it kind of blew me away. was like, man, people from all over the world get that, but it's great. And that's part of it is that we're all part of that community. You know, I think I was on like maybe a cannabis subreddit browsing and then saw it about a year ago. And then I think I saw the post like, hey, I'm doing this podcast. And at the time I was like, interestingly enough, I haven't really released any music until very recently. I had given all my music to my friend Goagill to play and I never tried to release it or do anything. And then, you know, when he passed, he was like, hey, you should really get your music out there. I'm just saying, like, you should, people would dig it. And then so that was part of like, I was in this framework of like, maybe it'd be cool to get my music out there. So that's how I had sent the music over to be like, hey, I think I write stuff that's kind of psychedelic and, and laid back. Like the stuff I sent was kind of more intentionally like a little bit more. laid back but like, know, pretty. There could be an argument that any music is psychedelic, almost. Like, I mean, I've heard, like I grew up in Texas, I think I hate country, but then occasionally I'll hear something and I'll be like, damn, I mean, that person's obviously connected to the source of what they're doing. And then I think any musician can do that, playing any type of music. I mean, really, you know, for sure. Like bluegrass is incredibly psychedelic. I mean. It reminds me of like almost Hindu mosques and like the artwork in there is incredibly psychedelic and you would never expect it from some of these places, there it is. Gosh, yeah. And some of those, like the whirling dervishes are like these, you know, people in the moss that'll just like spin in a circle for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. And then now that I've danced that long, I know what that does to your brain. I mean, it really activates you. I was actually, when I was looking into the music and the trance music and everything, that's a lot of what it reminded me of was the Sufi or the whirling derlishes like you were talking about. Just that trance like dance where they get going and just keep going. Yeah, it takes you to a lot of the same place. Say if you didn't have access to any psychedelics at all, but you had access to music, you could get pretty close to where people get with the tools. Because well, dancing is a tool as well. I mean, let's be honest, exhaustion is a hell of a drug. I don't know if you've ever pushed yourself really far, stayed up way too long. I mean... That really breaks down the barriers just as much as almost anything else I've done. And I think that kind of will come into it is when you go to festivals and do that too, you're already out there at the festival outdoors and camping a lot of times for days on end. So you kind of have a little bit of that exhaustion and lack of sleep and staying up with the combination of substances and everything. And you just go in and go and nonstop. And so yeah, kind of a nice combination. Another couple, I guess the other two of my top of this year were, both had to do with laws and government. One was that the DEA called for an increased production for DMT. And the other one was that Utah lawmakers unanimously sent legislation for therapy for veterans and veterans and other people. And I think to me, those were probably some of the better, bigger stories of the year that You know, especially like Utah, like one of those places and it goes to show that with the right messaging and the right kind of drive and the right kind of people, you know, that we can bring this to all those different people. And that I think is, yeah, I think that's really the beauty of all this. like the real goal is to, you know, just bring this and destigmatize it because yeah, you can see how many people just get helped by this. and Oregon are great examples. I have a really good friend of mine who was like really late to the game on psychedelics and in his 40s he was incredibly depressed near suicidal for many years after the loss of several family members and he just actually started microdosing mushrooms and then you know a year later we start talking a bunch about it and now I mean that's his calling I mean he lives in Texas and his facilitating these experiences for other people, lot of vets, because he was a vet. you know, in a lot of ways, I think the microdosing is great because you can, you don't have to, like, when I was tripping a lot, I really didn't have a lot of time for work or other things, you know. Or integration. It took me a while to get to integration because I'd be high a lot. And then I think with, I've had more experiences with microdosing recently, and it's a lot, you get a lot of the benefit without some of the bigger, profound things that come up with larger trips. And I'm not saying like those are bad. It's just, you know, people's lives have different things going on. And then, I mean, Sometimes I think like for a vet who's maybe has PTSD, if they don't have the right set and setting set in place for big therapeutic trips, microdosing is totally a great alternative and a great path. And it's probably easier to remember too when you're microdosing. We were talking about that earlier, but what's the old meme? Lucy shows you the secrets of the universe, lets you forget them by the next morning. Kind of the same, almost the same path on that. But yeah, it's been a crazy year. mean, obviously my top post for the year would have been the... of all would have been the Rick Strassman just to have him come in and do an AMA for the subreddit. That was cool. I love that show. it was, it was really good. He's, he's so well-spoken and so interesting to talk to him about just pick his brain about these, these different subjects because, you know, like, what else am I going to talk to, to someone about, you know, the Arist, Aristotelian, you know, theory of mindset and, you know, youngian archetypes, know, and within DMT trips to somebody of his color. So it's, it's just kind of, yeah, it just kind of blows me away a little bit. It's just a little surreal, but It's been fucking amazing. That actually made me think, know, I go to a lot of music festivals where a big part of the music festival is the tent where people give talks and stuff. you know, it might be, you know, I just think maybe we should keep in touch on a little bit. You know, we've met. I love what you're doing because I think, you know, there might be a few festivals, if not this year, just sometime in the future. where it would be totally appropriate for you to record some episodes there because there's so many people there that, you know, like all these, all the people we talk about tend to go to these festivals and talk, you know, so you could access all of them, you know, like there's musicians there, there's people there that are tripping, it's a chance to look at psychedelic culture, you know. That's, I mean, that sounds great. That's something, that's something we've been talking about and just trying to get going. And yeah, we've, we, got real lucky with our first initial, this initial lineup of getting these guests together to get, you know, this first six months or so. But yeah, just trying to keep this going to keep it going. It's, going to be that, you know, just hard work and, and fun of going to festivals and interview people. And that's the thing about that too. Yeah, we may be going to, you may go to the festival or go to these, you know, the psychedelic conference. But a lot of that is also going to be work. We're going to have to go and record and talk to people and, you know, get some interviews. So, I mean, it'd be awesome. I think it'd be amazing to go out and, you know, kind of represent the Psychonaut community. And I think part of it is, you know, like we said, you know, bringing these people together, that advocacy of, hey, we are a community out here. And there's, you know, 500,000 people back that are, you know, yes, we may gather online, but we're all... interested in this specific thing. Yeah, totally. That's cool. Yeah, but yeah, that's like I said, sometimes we both I think we both be interested in some like festivals. They still do some festivals around here. want to say. Yeah, the big one around here, I think, is that they don't really do EDM, but they were doing backwards was the big EDM festival. there's a couple smaller hippie festivals they do out here sometimes. I think Ott. Yeah, he did a couple of them once. Like I said, not a lot of big EDM names come out this way. So sure. A lot of hippie festivals. Which are great. Yeah, no. No, yeah, I'm like when you're talking about the dead. Yeah, I'm a huge dead head. I got into the dead back in oh, 95, I guess the spring of 95. we. Yeah, that was like I was like that summer, I was so excited because I wanted to go and wanted to do tour and everything, but I was 17 and so I couldn't really do it. I was like, man, I can't go on tour yet, you know, but. They're going to go do Europe next year. And then when they come back, I'll be like 19. I can go on tour with them again. You know, when they, when they get back from Europe and then in August, after that last tour Jerry died, I actually went, started doing rainbow festivals. Yeah, dude, rainbow gatherings and oh God, I went to seven or eight nationals doing that. And that's where I picked up playing Jim bae doing drums and Yeah, totally. That's one of the only places you can go and play Jim Bae until 5 a.m. and nobody cares. Yeah. Well, Dill Alien, was great having you here with us tonight. Super great. know, like I said, thank you so much for having your music on, letting us use your music for this, for the podcast. And, you know, thank you for for doing all your music and sharing it with us. Thanks for having me on. look forward to talking again. This has been a very good time. yeah, we're excited about having you back. I think we'll have a good time. yeah, pleasure talking to you. It's really great, Sure, and I look forward to listening to all your podcasts and good luck with all your endeavors. Alright, welcome back everybody. So that was Dill Alien, the guy that did the music. That was a fun conversation. Oh yeah, yeah, that's great. Had a little computer trouble there for a minute, but. Yeah, that happens. Yeah, he, that was one part. think you did miss. was talking about, he thought there was some, festivals out there, maybe California or somewhere else where he might get us to come and even do speaking or doing recordings and stuff with him. Yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. I told him, know, even then we would still be a lot of fun, but still be a lot of work. So. All right. So you guys support us on patreon.com Divergent States. Also hit us up on Instagram, us on TikTok, Facebook, anywhere you're at Reddit. You got an interesting story. Want to come on? I think it'd be fun to talk to us on the podcast. Hit us up. Yeah. You guys be fun out there. Be safe and take it easy. you